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has Jude 1 14:15 happened yet or Future Event To Come?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jul 16, 2011.

  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    '...And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.' Mt 26:63-64

    I agree with DHK's comments, but there is one other thing to add. The Lord Jesus was speaking to the High Priest: 'Jesus said unto him,' but He did not say that the H.P. would see Him. It was 'ye'- plural- who would see Him. Ye- Pharisees, unbelievers, those of all ages who trample the Son of man underfoot and insult the Spirit of grace, who, coming forth from their tombs (Dan 12:2 etc), will see the Lord Jesus coming with the clouds of heaven at the end of time.

    Steve
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well that's what you have to say about it. I like Gill on this (you liked him last night, remember?):

    Matthew 26:64

    Ver. 64. Jesus saith unto him, thou hast said,.... That is, thou hast said right; or as Mark expresses it, "I am", Mr 14:62, the Christ, the anointed of God, who was so from everlasting, and in time; being before the world was, installed into, and invested with the office of mediator; and in the fulness of time, anointed with the holy Spirit without measure: he might truly say he was the Messiah, since all the characters of him in the books of the prophets, met in him; and all the miracles he was to work in proof of his Messiahship were wrought by him: as also that be was the Son of God, not by creation, as angels and men; nor by adoption, as saints; nor as man, or in the human nature, in which he was the son of man, and not the Son of God; nor was he begotten as man, whereas he is called the only begotten Son, and the begotten of the Father; and was he the Son of God as man not the first, but the third person must be his Father; besides, he was the Son of God before his incarnation: nor as mediator neither; be was the Son of God, antecedent to his office as mediator; his sonship is distinct from it, is an illustration of it, and what puts virtue into it; but he is so as God, as a divine person, by natural and eternal filiation; being begotten of the Father in the divine essence, and of the same nature; and having the same perfections with him, and in all things equal to him; and is the sense in which he always affirmed God to be his Father, and himself to be his Son. For this phrase, "thou hast said", as answering to an affirmation, "I am", See Gill on "Mt 26:25". Now, though Christ had so fully answered to the adjuration, and so strongly affirmed himself to be the Messiah, the Son of God, yet he knew they would not believe; and therefore refers them to an after proof thereof, which whether they would or not, would oblige them to acknowledge the whole:

    nevertheless, I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the son of man, sitting at the right hand of power: the Vulgate Latin, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel, read "the power of God", as in Lu 22:69, though it is not absolutely necessary; for "power" designs God himself, who is all powerful; as appears by the creation of all things out of nothing, the upholding of all things in their being, the redemption of men, the conversion of sinners, and the preservation of his saints. In the Jewish writings {e}, God is frequently called, hrwbgh, "the power": such a thing, say they, we have heard, hrwbgh ypm, "from the mouth of power", or might; that is, from God himself: and so he is by the Grecians called dunamiv, "power" {f}: by "the son of man", is meant Christ in the human nature; who then appeared at their bar as a mere man, in a very despicable form and condition, but hereafter they should see him in a more glorious one, and at "the right hand of God": a phrase expressive of his exaltation, above all creatures whatever: respect is had to the prophecy of him in Ps 110:1. "Sitting" there, denotes his having done his work; and his continuance in his exalted state, until all enemies are subdued under him: and when he says they should "see" him, his meaning is not, that they should see him at the right hand of God with their bodily eyes, as Stephen did; but that they should, or at least might, see and know by the effects, that he was set down at the right hand of God; as by the pouring forth of the holy Spirit upon his disciples, on the day of pentecost; by the wonderful spread of his Gospel, and the success of it, notwithstanding all the opposition made by them, and others; and particularly, by the vengeance he should take on their nation, city, and temple; and which may be more especially designed in the next clause;

    and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner, Mt 24:27. Though this may also be understood of Christ's second coming to judgment, at the last day; when as he went up to heaven in a cloud, he will return, and come also in the clouds of heaven; see Ac 1:9 Re 1:7, when he will be seen by the eyes of all, good and bad; and when this sanhedrim, before whom he now was, will see him also, and confess that he is Lord and Christ, and the Son of God. Though the former clause seems to have regard to what would quickly come to pass, and what they should soon observe, and be convinced of; for ap' arti, rendered "hereafter", may be translated "henceforwards"; or as it is in the Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions, "from this time"; meaning, that in a very little while, they should begin to see the effects of his being set down at the right hand of God, and which would be full proofs of it, and should see him come in the clouds of heaven, at the last day: reference seems to be had to Da 7:13, where one like unto the son of man is said to come in the clouds of heaven, and which is understood of the Messiah by many, both of the ancient and modern Jews {g}: with whom one of his names is "Anani" {h}, which signifies "clouds".
     
    #22 kyredneck, Jul 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2011
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    He sure was wrong on that one wasn't me? There is no historical proof that it happened. No evidence that it happened. It is told just a fairy tale would be told to a child. There are simply no facts to back it up. It is very presumptuous to make things up just because you have to make things fit with an obscure theology. That is very strange indeed.
     
  4. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    You bring up a very good point. Covenant believers of all kinds place as much if not more weight on the WCoF, other creeds, the teaching of the reformers and in their belief that there are three covenants, none which are found in the Bible (covenants of works, grace and redemption) than they do in the actual Bible. If they really believed Sola Scriptura, that the Scripture interprets Scripture, then I believe the bulk of them would at least lean more in the direction of dispensationalism than the theology of the reformers. You can't get any more than 10 pages into a written discussion with guy's like Horton or Riddlebarger before it becomes clear that the creeds of the reformers are their baseline.

    It's simple to go through Matt 24-25 and the book of Revelation, make a list of the things that will happen when Jesus returns and of the end of the age and quickly realize that at no time in history has any of this happened as detailed in Scripture. Example, Revelation ch 18 states that Babylon will not be rebuilt after it's fall, this cannot indicate that Jerusalem is Babylon and since Jerusalem is still in existence and Babylon did exist for cenrturies after AD 70, we can say with confidence that Jesus didn't return when the temple was first destroyed in AD 70.

    Josephus doesn't write that Jesus returned in AD 70. Josephus didn't believe that Jesus was the redemption of Israel for that matter. Very little of what preterists teach makes sense to those who actually put Sola Scriptura into practice. The futurist, regardless of their view on Sola Scriptura, has the Word of God on their side with respect to a future second coming of the Lord Jesus, 2 Thess ch. 2 taken as the final authority of the faith.
     
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