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has the Christian Church Redefined Hell and Homosexuality?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JesusFan, Nov 15, 2011.

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  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Just Look Around.....

    .....And you will see that many denominations are now ordaining homosexuals and conducting marriage ceremony of homosexuals. The no longer require that a Christian be born-again, and have totally ceased the practice of water baptism.

    And this is just the tip of the spiritual iceberg when it comes to deviation from Scritpure...

    These same churches are led by the need to practice political correctness, social tolerance and ecumenical unity that join them in partnership with any denominations. The Word demands that the shepherd practice Scriptural and spiritual discernment and discretion when it comes to where they lead the flock for feeding as well as whom and what they allow to come in and mingle (fellowship) with the flock.
     
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    1) A sinner has to turn to God (repent) and come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, nothing more and nothing less. Repentance does not come in degrees or percent's. Either we repent or we do not. God does not require us to overcome, He makes us overcomers and once we are saved we will no longer practice sin. The problem is that MANY who claim to get saved do not and some of those get saved later and the evidence is seen.

    2) You mentioned smoking and drinking. Neither are said to be sin in scriptures, but I advise against both. If a person claims to get saved and remains in the practice of sin they did not get saved. 1John 2:4 and 3:9.

    3) It is not about being perfect. If we never sin again we will still not be perfect within ourselves so you need to stop trying to justify sinning by claiming we are not perfect. While it is true that most Christians continue to sin from time to time after salvation it is never a practice. Saying a Christian is a sinner is not biblical as the term is used to designate a lost person. We who have been born again are those who are washed and in regards to sin and we are "such were some of you" saints 1 Cor 6.

    4) the answer is yes certain sins do repulse more then others and they should although the child of God should be repulsed at any sin, especially their own. Certain sins repulse God more then others so it should be the same with us. If you read the scriptures He makes it clear that some sins are greater then others John 19:11. Also He calls some sins an abomination and others He does not so yes certain sins are greater then others. Different sins brought different punishments in scripture. Some brought the death penalty and other did not so yes there is greater sins. That is not to suggest that the least of sin will not cost a person their soul or if we do not do the biggies we are better then another. Paul felt he was the chief of sinners because of his past sins. That is the attitude every Christian should hold about themselves because of their past sins.

    5) So to answer your question is it any worse for two men or two women to be in a relationship then a man and a woman living in fornication. Ask this question. Is murdering someone worse then slapping them up side the head? YES! However neither can be justified.

    So "has the Christian Church Redefined Hell and Homosexuality?" The church has redefined sin and its consequences as well as the results of salvation.
     
    #22 freeatlast, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2011
  3. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    There is no consequence of sin for the believer. Our fate is secure or else our salvation be based on works rather than grace. (something I don't believe anyone here holds to) Unbelievers are condemned already (John 3:17) no matter what sin they practice.

    There are earthly consequences for failing to keep our temples clean: we might cause someone else to reject Christ. And right now, the biggest "cleaning" issue we face as a society is that of h*mosexuality. And that's a concern as it well should be.

    If that redefines sin, I guess I'm guilty of it, because that is how my Bible reads. We are condemned without Christ and saved by Him. That's the simplicity of the gospel. When I John says:

    1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.


    Does he mean Christ removes our sin? Or does he directly contradict the above by saying a few verses later:


    1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


    Hmm, we must not be saved in the first place if we sin??

    But then John goes on to say:


    1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.


    We say, this sin and that sin can't be committed if one is a Christian, but the Bible doesn't teach us to recognize other believer's by the sins they DON'T commit but by the FRUITS they exhibit.

    And if that redefines sin, you'll have to show me how. Because the above says directly that one born of God cannot sin. So either we don't sin, never transgress the law and become perfect after salvation, or that sin is simply not charged to our account because its been paid for by the blood of Christ. I believe the second choice is correct. Tell me where I've redefined sin and its consequences.
     
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Think that the main issue here is that some who hold to 'lordship salavtion" take the position that unless one is able to demonstarte that one has been actually saved, by evidence of a changed/godly lifestyle, cannot prove/support 'biblical salvation"

    of course, that begs the question, just how much must we be like jesus then to actually be saved? can one still have persisting sin, besitting sins as per hebrews even after getting saved?
     
  5. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    This much;
    1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
     
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Apostle John was refering to those who were NOT saved to start with, those who were walking in the darkness of a false Gospel, and he addressed those who were really saved by real Gospel when he said that if we sin, than we had an advocate with the father, who would totally cleanse us from all of those sins if we repent and confess them to God! Christians who founds themselves sinning against God, and this was means to make their fellowship with God recomfirmed!
     
  7. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    If we are not keeping the commandments we are not saved.
     
  8. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    how many, and how for how long?

    are we under the law now, or under grace?
     
  9. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    That is your problem. You are trying to pit one part of scripture against another. No we are not under the law, but we are not free to sin either. Also at salvation we are changed and we never again practice sin. It is not a time passage. It is a character passage.
    Click on this link if you want to understand this.
    http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
     
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    We should live in the HS power, and he will enable us NOT to sin against god, but we are NOT in sinless perfection state, so we will still at times chose to sin against God, and at those times, John proscribes to us confession of those sins in order to get cleansed and move on!
     
  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No John never tells us to confess our sins and move on. Click on the link
    http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
     
  12. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    I John explicitly states to Christians that we should not be sinning, but IF we do sin, need to confess that to God, and His grace will restore us back!
     
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No you are adding to scripture 1 John does not say that. There is nothing there about being restored. In 1john 1:9 it is speaking to the lost Gnostics and telling them that they can be saved. It is not a passage for the saved. We are already cleansed from all unrighteousness.
     
  14. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    reread the beginning of the book , as John clearly states that his expressed purpose is to write to the saved of God, to assure them of their standing with god, and to help them be able to keep their fellowship, which is in verses 1:8-9!
     
  15. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I said he was writing to Christians but he is addressing the problem of Gnosticism that had crept into the church. Verse 8 and 9 do not apply to the saved, No saved person need to "cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We are already clean. 1Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed.
    However there were those who were Gnostics in the church. In fact there are some in most churches and even some here on this BB.
     
  16. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    IF we look at the context, John NEVER changed in Chapter one, as he started and finished addressing saved persons, those who were Christians!

    We NEVER lose our relationship with the father, as that was established by Cross of Christ, BUt can and do lose fellowship when we sin, until we confess and forsake it to God!
     
    #36 JesusFan, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2011
  17. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No he is dealing gnosticism that had crept into the christian church.
    Read here
    http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs61.html
     
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    again, the clear context is that his "main" issue being dealt with is that Christians are to live their lives worthy of their calling in christ, but also that we can restablish fellowship with God even if we do sin!
     
  19. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    A christian cannot lose fellowship. He is dealing gnosticism that had crept into the christian church.
    Read here
    http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs61.html
     
  20. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Starnge indeed that John would say to a Gnostic that they have an advocate with the father, jesus the Lord, and that God will freely forgive them and restore them if they confess their sins to god!
     
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