Hate the sin and love the sinner?

Can anyone help me with who God hated other than Esau?

 

It says that hate is one of them. The word "hate" though means "enmity" as the NASB has it translated.

 

BB, it really isn't that interesting. I just know where this discussion is going, so I am trying to stay very factual.

Your comments about just reading the gospels isn't helpful. You need to point out specific examples.

My claim that the totality of Scripture must be taken into account doesn't nullify the need for specific examples. We need to be able to deal with ALL of the specific examples.

For example, please interpret Psalm 5:5 without jumping to other texts.

 

Had Hitler grown up in a baptist home, he himself would still be evil. Circumstances play a part in who we are, but we choose to allow them to determine who we are.

People are sinful and utterly bankrupt of anything good. That is how they enter the world.

 

Absolutely false. It is only because God hates who people are that he extends his love, mercy, and grace toward them so that they change. He loves people TO CHANGE THEM. Basic theology here.

The gospel doesn't merely clean up the actions of a person. It changes WHO THEY ARE.

Doctrine of substitution:

God punished Christ as though he committed all the sins of all who believe that we might receive the righteousness of who he always was and will be.

 

Only in a general sense (which does not save a person so it isn't relevant to the discussion).

In a technical sense, let us turn to the Scriptures as our final authority:

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM ."

 

It says that hate is one of them. The word "hate" though means "enmity" as the NASB has it translated.

 

It is difficult to know exactly how to say what I want to say. God is Love-defineatly! John 3:16 and Romans 5:8: they are in the Bible, no dispute. However, are there passages that seem to speak to the other view expressed here? Yes there is.

The Psalmist writes:
Do not I hate them, O Lord that hate thee? and am I not grieved with those who rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred. I count them mine enemies.
Ps. 139:21,22.
Nothing here about hating their deeds, no, THEM.

2Ch. 19:2:
And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to king Jehoshaphat, shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? Therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.
Again, not their deeds, but THEM.

The Lord Jesus:
While not using the word, "Hate", per se, He did list a number of things that were commendable at the Church at Ephesus among them was:
"...and how thou canst not bear them which are evil. Rev, 2:2 KJV
Other versions: "...tolerate wicked men..."
NIV and NASB.
"...bear with those who are evil..."
ESV
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, once again-THEM.
Now, I do not believe that this says to hate all sinners. No, in that case we should all hate one another, because we all sin and fall short. Nor am I about to advocate joining Fred Phelps. No.
I believe the phrase in 2Ch. 19:2 is the key:
"...love them that hate the Lord?" I believe that these passages refer to them that are so far gone that they, not only hate the Lord, but anything good or descent.
We do not know peoples hearts. However Jesus said,
"Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast ye your pearls befor swine..."
Mt. 7:6
There must be a way for us to know who the DOGS and SWINE are. By actions and words who they are should be evident.

 

In one sense, this discussion is undoubtably very closely associated with the election debate. Though my position on election shapes my view on this issue, I will try to just deal with the issue at hand.

As has been amply evidenced from Holy writ, God does hate certain individuals. Esau is a specific example, and more general examples are provided in Ps.5:5 and 11:5. However, though any Bible believer must acknowlege the plain sense of these passages; we also must acknowlege the "common grace", taught in Matt.5:45, which is God's provision of temporal life and its necessities, for even the wicked. At the risk of over-simplifying "love", for the purpose of this discussion let us equate the concept with "caring for the object of love." If God cares for these wicked people by providing for them, could we not say that He, to some degree, loves them (albeit in some far lesser sense than His own children)? This "common grace", comparatively, could be considered a very small love (as compared to God's salvific love), or it could be considered a very great love (as compared to what we all deserve- damnation). Regardless, we are here taught that God cares for everyone, yea even the wicked, in at least some lesser temporal sense.

The question will now be raised, how do we reconcile God's hate for the wicked, with His temporal provision for them? I must conclude that the best answer is this: His "hate" is given in an eternal damning sense, while His love is given in a temporal provisional sense.

Now, why have I dealt with the reprobates' relation to God, when the question at hand is his relation to us? Because, as has been mentioned, Jesus left us an example; and indeed, in like manner, God is glorified when we manifest those attributes of His which we are meant to imitate. So then, what principal can we extrapolate from this understanding? Quite simply, that there are, in fact, varying degrees and senses of love. God's love for the wicked is a temporal and provisional one, while His love for His children is an eternal and redemptive one. To follow suit, I believe we must treat even the most wicked of sinners as objects of our Christian love (as we are indesputably commanded to do in Luke 6:27-35), yet all the while realizing that that love is nothing, comparatively, to the depth of love we must have toward the brethren. We treat them with love, for testimony's sake, while hating thier sins; but realizing that God MAY hate them in an eternal damning sense, so we ought not to fix upon them the depth or degree of love we ought to fix upon our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

Perhaps we are over complicating the phrase "Hate the sin but love the sinner" in this debate. It is usually used when trying to explain why, for example, Jesus interacted with "publicans and sinners," when the religious leaders of the day found it appalling.

Turned around, it explains why Christians, trying to follow God's Word, would state that they would not allow certain persons to be members and/or officers of their church, but would certainly allow them to attend services. All of us are sinners, and become members and officers of a local church because we have acknowledged our sins, and sought and received God's forgiveness. But even though those who would declare publicly that behaviors they engage in are perfectly acceptable, while God's Word calls them sin, would be precluded from joining a local church while holding that view, they should be welcomed to hear the Gospel and treated with respect as another human being for whom Christ died.

I think that's all the phrase is really about.

 

AMEN!!! I couldn't agree with you more!!!

Not just that, but to love them as we love ourselves. So we need to also respect ourselves enough to love ourselves. And no, that ain't selfish. Self-respect is biblical.

Amen! If we loved only those who were not sinners, or, worse yet, if God only loved those who were not sinners, none of us would be loved, and we would be unable to to love anyone.

Most certainly, and loving a sinner doesn not in any way detract from hating sin.

Not only that, it belittles not only the Bible, but also legitimate healthy emotional concerns that all Christian have.

 

Not so. Gen1 referrs to people as "very good". When we ask God what we are that God is so mindful of us, the Biblical reply is that we are made a little lower than the angels, and crowned with glory and honor.

It's true that our sinful nature gives us an evil nature, but that evil nature does not overcome the very good creations that we are. For nothing can overpower that which is of God.

 

And yet, in Revelations 20, after the last judgment, God throws the sinner into everlasting torment in the lake of fire. Not just the sin.

 

And yet, in Revelations 20, after the last judgment, God throws the sinner into everlasting torment in the lake of fire. Not just the sin. </font>[/QUOTE]And that day will grieve the heart of God. Read through the prophets to see God's love for His people, his hatred for their sin, and his heart when they will not repent.
God is too holy to tolerate sin, that does not affect the fact that He is Love.

 

Good way of putting it, Debby; thank you JohnV. Pinoy, let's put it this way -- BEFORE God makes that last judgment, I'm sure we are to obey Christ, eh?

 

Any view of God that does not display all of who he is, is distorted.

The question was asked if it was right to "love the sinne and hate the sin".

I think this thread has demonstrated:

God hates the sin (as we all agree on)
God hates certain types of people (of which not all agree on)
God hates and loves all people until they are justified and thus only under his love (of which I believe)

This is not an isult to anyone, but I do not think my position has been dealt with according to the Scripture.

Johnv, humanity has marred what God created good.

There is none righteous, no not one. If they aren't righteous, they are evil. It is because of WHO people are that they need Christ. End of discussion.

 

Much of the misunderstanding of the hatred and love of God comes from a misunderstanding of the term "love." We tend to think of love as approval and acceptance and in some contexts it does mean that.

In this sense God does not love the wicked. He does not approve of them or accept them. Rather, His wrath abides on them. Or, as David put it in the 5th and 11th Psalms, He hates them.

But love can also mean simply to do good toward someone. In this sense God does "love" the wicked. He does good to the wicked in giving them life and sustenance. As Jesus said, God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

God also did good to the wicked by giving Christ to die and provide a way of deliverance from wickedness. You will notice that John 3:16 does not say, "God so loves" the world but, "God so loved." This is a statement of something God did for the world, not some way that He feels about the world.

Those who accept this offering of love are justified before God and therefore are approved and accepted. This is not to say God loves or accepts all their deeds, some of which are still done in the flesh and are therefore hateful to God. Rather, it is to say God accepts their person because it is regenerated in Christ and therefore perfect and worthy of God's love and acceptance. As Paul said of the believer's sin,

"It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

Those who reject God's provision of love in Christ abide under His wrath, anger, and hatred. Those who continue in this condition till death will have all love withdrawn and the only thing left will be the unmitigated hatred of God toward them. As the Lord said in Hosea,

"All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house. I will love them no more."

Mark Osgatharp

 

Yes, but humanity did not destroy what God created. First, that's impossible for us to do. Second, if we did destroy what God created, then there would have been nothing for Jesus to save.

 

I think one of the issues is what love and hate are:

In the OT Hebrew, the word translated into "hate" is more an implication of intense dislike. It does not infer an absence or withholding of love. It's an emotional response. In this sense, God can dislike us based on our sins.

However, love is not an emotion. It's a decision. In the a forementioned John 3:16, God gave us Jesus our of a decision, not out of some feeling for us. Feelings come and go. Agape, that is, the type of love God has for us, does not come and go. It's permanent and unconditional.

Hence, God does not hate the sinner, if hating the sinner means to not love them. God can dislike a person, but our salvation is not based on dislike, but on love.