1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Hate the sin and love the sinner?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bible-boy, Nov 6, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  2. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    Coming in late here, and confessedly did not read the thread.

    It is a nice cliche, but I fear that is all it is. Often repeated and seldom followed.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    Then either the Bible contradicts itself, or the verse above is not taken in context. Let's take a look at the verse:

    In this chapter, verses 1 thru 15 are written fro the author's point of view. This is not God talking, but the author talking about people who do evil things. In the line "I will love them no more", it is not God talking, nor is it the author repeating what God would say. Rather this is the author saying the he, not God, will love these people no more.

    In other words, when we do wrong, people will withhold their love from us, and we will be unwelcome to them. That doesn't mean God approves of the people or of the evildoer, it simply says what we can expect of people when we do evil.

    Don't believe me? Read it for yourself. It's clear as day that God is not the one speaking here. So please don't put words in God's mouth. Context, folks, context!!!!
     
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    JohnV,

    It is not at all uncommon for the prophets to switch back and forth between their own statements and the statements of God. Therefore it is not at all clear to me that Hosea is speaking. But let's say that he is, the fact still remains that he was inspired by God and therefore his opinion reflected the opinion of God. As Peter said,

    "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

    Furthermore, in the same context Hosea says,

    "My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him."

    Not only so, but we have such statements as this of David which unquestionably speaks of God's hatred for the wicked:

    "The Lord trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup."

    And we have these words of God in Malachi:

    "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated."

    For the record, "Jacob" and "Esau" here does not speak of the individuals but the nations of people which sprang from them. In other words, God loves Israel as a class of people and hates Esau (Edom). As the Lord went on to identify the Edomites as,

    "The people against whom the Lord hath indignation forever."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  5. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    It is abundantly clear that Hosea is speaking of himself and what he will do, not what the Lord will do.

    The context was not God's opinion, but Hosea's opinion. His opinion here is divinelt inspired, but it IN NO WAY supports the idea that God withholds love as discussed in thes thread.

    Being moved by the Holy Ghost is indeed the definition of writing by inspiration, but it does not support the idea that Hosea was speaking as though he were God.
     
  6. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hosea is not speaking as if we was God; but he is speaking as if he were speaking for God. Peter said,

    "No prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

    Peter bluntly asserts that the prophets did not speak their own interpretation of things, but God's interpretation of things.

    Furthermore, when you say that the "I" in the passage must be Hosea and not God, you are totally ignoring the context, just as you accuse me of doing. If you will carefully read the whole chapter you will find that some of the "I" statements could not possibly be Hosea himself. Such as,

    "Tough they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!"

    Finally, I would like to hear your comments on the passage from David in the Psalms:

    "The Lord trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup."

    And the one from Malachi:

    "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated....the people against whom the Lord hath indignation forever."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    Hosea did't say that:

    "Give them, O LORD: what will you give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters... My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him"

    Hosea is speaking to and about God, and telling God what his feelings are. The context is abundantly clear that you're absolutely wrong about who's speaking.

    Understanding proper context does not negate this. Many places in the OT want us to make sure we know it's God speaking, and begin with "the word of the Lord as given to ..." So here is a clear indicator that there's difference between who's speaking, even though all is snspired. In the NT Paul also examples where his words are his words and not God's, but we does the opposite of what the OT does by saying "here I speak, not the Lord".

    I've read the whole chapter numerous times. The context that "I" is Hosea is crystal clear.
    This is a translational issue. There's no exact English word for the Hebrew word sane' which implies a fierce adversarial relationship. Knowing this, it's clear that the verse does not imply that God withholds his love from those who love violence, but see feels for them as he would feel for one who is an enemy. In the NT, Jesus says to love our enemies.
    That's not from Malachi, it's from Romans. But first thing first. The word in Malachi is also sane' and carries the same context as above. Additionally, the word "love" here is is one of favor. It's not the same as agape love described in the NT, which God has for all. All this verse tells us is that God found favor with Jacob and did not with Esau.

    Now Romans 9 asks the question:

    "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    The words here for love and hate are agape (unconditional love) and miseo (detesting). The context here implys that God's compassion, or the lack thereof, is not based on his love for people. God does love all, but that does not mean that all find favor, or all find mercy, adn it does not mean that God will have disdain for those who live in sin, even though he loves them.
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    08130 sane' {saw-nay'}
    a primitive root; TWOT - 2272; v
    AV - hate 136, enemies 3, enemy 2, foes 1, hateful 1, misc 3; 146
    1) to hate, be hateful
    1a) (Qal) to hate
    1a1) of man
    1a2) of God
    (strong's number 8130)

    Examples:

    Leviticus 19:17 'Do not hate your brother in your heart.

    Deuteronomy 30:7 The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you.

    Psalm 5:4-5 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men
    the LORD abhors.

    The Hebrew word translated "abhor" is not "sane", however.

    08581 ta`ab {taw-ab'}
    a primitive root; TWOT - 2530; v
    AV - abhor 14, abominable 6, abominably 1, utterly 1; 22
    1) to abhor, be abominable, do abominably
    1a) (Niphal) to be abhorred, be detested
    (strong's number 8581)
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're forgetting the biggest arguement: That when God applies sane', that he withholds love. This is biblically no the case. God can and does engage in sane' and agape towards the same person. Hence, one can hate the sin and loving the sinner at the same time. The assertion that God does not love those he hates (sane') is an unbiblical assertion.
     
  10. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    Psalm 5 says the LORD hates people who do wrong, and abhors bloodthirsty and deceitful men. It does not say that the LORD loves these men but hates what they do. It is Biblical that while we were yet sinners, God loved us, which means that it is possible for God to love a sinner. But that does not give one license to change the plain meaning of the text in places like Psalm 5 and interpret it to mean God hates only the sin, and not the sinner.

    Psalm 5:4-6 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men
    the LORD abhors.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,136
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I guess Helen's answer is good enough, then. As far as I am concerned, I never like attributing something to God which He does not say about Himself - i.e., God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

    He is going to cast both sin and sinner to hell !
     
  12. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    11,048
    Likes Received:
    321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hey, npetreley, I have a question:

    Psalm 5, where it says "bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors", which was written by David, a man after God's own heart; was that written before or after David committed deceit (trying to get Uriah to lie with Bathsheba) and had Uriah murdered?

    I humbly submit that God loves us sinners in spite of ourselves, but that He also will not allow those of us that remain rebellious to the end to stay in His presence.

    I love my own son greatly. Even if he decides to reject me, I'll continue to love him; but I won't have him live in my house. If he repents, we'll discuss the situation.
     
  13. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    11,048
    Likes Received:
    321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pinoybaptist, God never said "hate the sin, love the sinner"--but He exhibited it in one great merciful act.

    Do our actions speak louder than our words?
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is the sum of the matter when all passages on the subject are harmonized:

    a. God "loves" all living men by giving them breath and sustenance and by offering them salvation.

    b. God "loves" only the righteous in the respect of approving of them and accepting them. Though He accepts the person of the righteous as righteous, He detests their flesh which is still in sin.

    c. God "hates" the living wicked in the respect of detesting and loathing their person as well as their deeds. He neither approves of nor accepts them. This does not negate the fact that He "loves" the living wicked in a practical way as described above.

    d. God has withdrawn all love from the wicked dead and therefore He hates them both in the repsect of detesting them and in the respect of witholding any practical acts of love from them. He hatred toward the wicked dead is active in the fact that He inflicts torment and anquish on them in the fires of hell.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are making that the presumption that love is absent when hate (sane') is present. That's not biblically correct. In English, the implication is there, but in Hebrew and Greek, it is not.
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did you mean to say "wicked deed" (action), or "wicked dead" (deceased)? I think you were referring to the latter, but I wanted to make sure.

    Interesting, that it never occurred to me that we might be talking about two different things. The "hate the sin, love the sinner" concept applies to the living, obviously. I had always presumed that an eternity of Hell would be an eternity absent from the God (which would include his love). But I've never given it much thought, because I don't plan on being there ;) .
     
  17. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very good point. He never said it. He did it. [​IMG]
     
  18. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did you mean to say "wicked deed" (action), or "wicked dead" (deceased)? I think you were referring to the latter, but I wanted to make sure.

    Interesting, that it never occurred to me that we might be talking about two different things. The "hate the sin, love the sinner" concept applies to the living, obviously. I had always presumed that an eternity of Hell would be an eternity absent from the God (which would include his love). But I've never given it much thought, because I don't plan on being there ;) .
    </font>[/QUOTE]JohnV,

    I'm talking about the wicked dead. The deceased. They are numbered among those of whom the Lord said in Hosea,

    "I will love them no more."

    ;)

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, the ones Hosea spoke about (politely agreeing to disagree ;) ). Then I think I can say I'm pretty much in agreement with your previous post.
     
  20. solja

    solja Guest

    I think Christ demonstrated this cliche to some extent when he saved the prostitute from being stonned. He revealed that all had sin by suggesting that whoever was without sin could cast the first stone. Then he "loved" the sinner by forgiving her her past seeing her for who she was and not what she had done; and by saying "go now and sin no more" he showed he "hated" the sin. This might be drawing a long bow but it sort of explains Hate the sin Love the Sinner in some way.
     
Loading...