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Featured Have you been deceived by Satan through your church?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Aug 30, 2017.

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  1. Felipe Rios

    Felipe Rios Member

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    John 10:28, "and I give eternal life to them (born-again ones), and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
    "Never" means never, and "no one" means no one.
    John 5:24, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
    The born again ones pass from death unto life when they believe on Him. Nowhere does it say you can go from life back into death. Nowhere!
    There are so many other verses proving this but those two simple verses should suffice.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We also have been sealed by the Holy Spirit Himself, and marked as belonging to God, and that sealing cannot be broken, not unless there is someone/something more powerful than God!
     
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  3. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Didn't I explain already that your favorite word "believe" (Greek "pisteou") in the NT
    means much more than the secular use of "pisteou"?
    There is NO Greek word that even comes close to including:
    believe in, have faith in, trust in, obey (until death).
    Problems like this is why we need paraphrases.
    Better than that is to be led by the Spirit in knowing what the Greek is saying.

    BTW, sounds like you think "believe" means intellectual belief. lol
     
  4. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    OK, if you mean that belief without fruit is pointless that is correct. Be very afraid if you call yourself a believer but have nothing to show for it (2 Peter 1:5-11) (James 2:14-26) (Matthew 7:15-27). However, we have talked about that a lot on this site.

    Again, I have a problem with your tone. For example your "lol" was a laugh in the face of a brother. I'll leave it there though, but I will say please treat others with respect.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul stated that there will be people saved as in by fire, who have NO good works that survive judgement, but they are still saved!
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit keep us, or do we ourselves?
     
  7. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Yeshua, that's how many people interpret 1 Corinthians 3, but I would caution that the context is to church leaders who lead wrongly by doing their work in a shabby way. I would caution against making a sweeping declaration about the afterlife for every believer based on it.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    paul was addressing there the Judgement seat of Christ that ALL christians will face, and so there will indeed be those saved by faith alone, but not too many good works!
     
  9. Felipe Rios

    Felipe Rios Member

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    I do not believe that the word "believe" means a head knowledge believe. I don't know how you would assume that based on a verse I quoted. The verse states that those who "believe" receive eternal life. Those are the words of Jesus, not mine.
    Now, what does it mean to believe in Jesus? Believing in Jesus means to "entrust" "commit" ones life to Jesus Christ. It does not mean simply a "head" believe, it is a "life commitment" belief. When a person places their faith and belief in Christ, they are committing their whole being to Christ. As a matter of fact, in John 2:24-25 Jesus said, "But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man." The word "entrusting" here is "pisteuo." Pisteuo means to entrust and commit to something. In this case we commit our lives to Christ.
    That commitment begans when a person repents and believe in Chrst. At that specific moment, that individual receives, salvation, eternal life, and the holy spirit.
    The idea of "head" belief started back in the 50's with the idea that you can "ask Jesus into your heart." You don't ask Jesus into your heart, you must repent and believe on Him to receive eternal life.
     
  10. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    Zachary, You should stop. My daughter has already corrected you. In fact, she completely refuted you by using the Word of God.

    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


    But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (
    Romans 5:8-10).


    And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (
    1 John 2:25).


    And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance
    (Hebrews 9:15).


    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life”
    (John 6:47).


    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life”
    (John 5:24).


    “Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”
    (Matthew 25:45-46).


    That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
    (John 3:15-16).


    Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life”
    (John 6:67-68).


    These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”
    (John 17:1-3).


    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God
    (1 Peter 1:18-21).


    I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past
    (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


    And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose
    (Romans 8:28).


    “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish”
    (Matthew 18:11-14).


    “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one”
    (John 10:27-30).


    “And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day”
    (John 6:39).


    “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled”
    (John 17:12).

    We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not
    (1 John 5:18).


    “But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils”
    (Luke 11:20-22).


    Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world

    (1 John 4:4).


    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it
    (1 Corinthians 10:13).



    “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect”
    (Matthew 24:24).



    They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us
    (1 John 2:19).


    Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
    (Philippians 1:2-6).



    And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen
    (2 Timothy 4:18).


    Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen
    (Jude 24-25).


    The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed
    (Psalm 37:23-26).


    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it
    (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


    “Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not”
    (Luke 22:31).


     
  11. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Here are some additional comments on 6 of the NT passages in the OP …

    “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter
    into life maimed rather than having two hands and go to hell” (Mark 9:43)

    Does Jesus go overboard in trying to express the incredible seriousness of sin?

    “You will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures
    to the end (until his death) will be saved (eternally).” (Matthew 10:22)

    There are about 15 NT verses which teach this spiritual Truth above.
    And, enduring in the faith until death includes …
    • Not falling away during the times of severe persecution of Christians
    • Not submitting to the incredible pressure of taking the dreaded mark of the beast
    Both of these severe TESTS will be coming upon professing Christians soon!
    Re: taking the mark, be sure you read the eternal consequences in Rev.13-14.

    “Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
    and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
    Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:15-16)

    Sin brings forth eternal death upon believers also, unless it is repented of!
    “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
    and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

    Repentance includes all of the following: the sorrow over committing the sin,
    the confessing it to God, the asking forgiveness for it, the stopping of doing it.

    “In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
    whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:10)
    “He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

    Many believers have been deceived by the gospel of hyper-grace, the “Me gospel”.
    They have been deceived into believing that they have been made
    FOREVER righteous because of what Jesus did for them on the Cross.
    They have NOT been made FOREVER anything by God’s free gift of grace.
    They have NOT been made FOREVER justified, righteous, sanctified, saved, etc.
    NO GUARANTEES is what the NT teaches! … because …
    We see that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL – all throughout the whole Bible!
    Warning: gifts can be taken back, seals can be broken, etc.
    Because believers are required to do their part in their salvation.
    They are required to co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit.
    And the opposite of this is the most-deadly practicing of habitual (unrepentant) sin!

    “And do NOT present your member as instruments of unrighteousness to sin,
    but present yourselves to God … as instruments of righteousness to God.
    … Do you not know that … you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
    whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
    (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness? … so now
    present your bodies as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
    … For the end of those things (past sins) is (eternal) death.
    ... For the wages of sin is (eternal) death,
    but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:13—23)

    Paul is writing to born-again believers in Rome (who are strangers to him).
    He warns them: sinning, being slaves of sin, being unrighteous – leads to eternal death!
    Attention: believers just do NOT understand Paul’s method of writing to the churches.
    It is all about being tactful, so he will be welcome to visit them (and teach them more).
    Paul mixes his warnings in amongst his MANY edifications, exhortations, blessings, etc.
    And he leaves it up to the precious Holy Spirit to reveal the deep meaning of Scripture.
    Warning: deceived believers are mistakenly taught to focus on the last line above,
    and they just do not realize that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL,
    which is seen all throughout the whole entire Bible!

    Believers are taught that passages such as the Romans 6 simply do NOT apply to them!
    The churches do NOT want to get the troops upset …
    because the troops come trooping in every Sunday with their tithes!
    To be fair, some church leadership are not this way … they have just been
    deceived by the greatest lair and deceiver in history, whose name is Satan!
     
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  12. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    We refute each other with Scripture! ... So what, big deal, etc.
    I implore you to RECONCILE my NT verses with your NT verses.
    Both groups are fairly equal (but one anti-OSASer says he has 150 NT verses on his side!)

    FYI, all of Jesus' verses in red apply to everyone!
    FYI, all of the Epistle verses apply to born-again believers (they were written to them).
     
  13. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    Quote snipped.

    This is you speculating and misusing the scriptures.

    No one has ever told me that Romans 6 does not apply to me. No one, not ever. SALVATION has NEVER been conditional.

    This is an exact word for word paste from another site. You have not provided a citation for the author. It is, of course,
    possible that you are the author. Don't miss this "Deceived by churches" follow-up - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

    I don't deal with speculation and wild guesses. The Bible is enough.

    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


    But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


    And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


    And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


    “Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


    That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


    Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


    These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


    I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


    And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


    “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


    “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


    “And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


    “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

    We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


    “But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


    Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
    (1 John 4:4).


    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



    “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



    They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


    Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



    And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


    Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


    The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


    “Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).
     
  14. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    Now you are saying that God's word cannot be trusted.

    You keep talking about reconciliation, yet you never even attempt to do it. God isn't a schizophrenic who changes His mind.
     
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That isn't what the Bible says. What the Bible says is this:
    'I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgements and do them' (Ezekiel 36:25-27).
    '"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days," says the Lord: "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people...........for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and the sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more"' (Hebrews 8:10-12).

    Salvation is of God from start to finish.
     
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  16. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    I did it last year, and have posted it here.
    It's only a few words.
    God's Truth is quite simple really.
    But, people have to be OPEN to receive His Truth (which you are not).
     
  17. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    God has always insisted on man's co-operation
    (except in creation).
    What you think our free will is for?
    Actually, I'm glad I'm not a mindless robot.
    There's a lot in the Bible about testing.
    There's a lot of conditional "IF"s in the NT.
    Oh sorry, I forgot that ...
    Salvation is of God from start to finish.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I'm prepared to admit that you're not a robot.
    If you can find a text tat says that people save themselves, be sure to let me know. Rather, the redeemed of the world cry out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb' (Revelation 7:10. cf. also Psalm 3:8; Isaiah 43:11; Jeremiah 3:23; Hosea 13:4; Jonah 2:9).
     
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Exactly. And, as David said, "Create in me a clean heart, Oh God . . . "

    So regeneration is the creation of a new heart and God does not require, in fact forbids, man's co-operation.
     
  20. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    If you think it's simple, then you shouldn't have say things that are not true.

    Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


    I believe my Bible.

    I'm not going to track down what you may or may not have said. If it's "only a few words" then you should have no problem posting it here.

    Reconciliation on the ........................................run...................................
     
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