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Featured He could not have died for them under God's Wrath !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Apr 6, 2015.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The questions are simple, Christianity 101 doctrines. We are propitiated when God puts us spiritually in Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, i.e. born anew. Not in Christ, God's wrath abides on us, in Christ God wrath is no longer on us, as we have been propitiated!!!!
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus death paid in full for the sin debt of all whom God intended to be saved by that act, and they receive their salvation the moment place faith unto jesus...

    Jesus death was sufficient to have indeed saved all sinners, but God intended it to save that "subset', as all would be lost if he chose not to have saved anyone due to his grace alone!
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another post of Calvinist assertions, devoid of any support from scripture. Jesus laid down His life as a ransom for all. Jesus is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

    Did Yeshua1 answer these questions?
    1) Did you address when individuals are propitiated, when Christ died, or when individuals undergo the circumcision of Christ? Nope.

    2) Did you address why Christ became the propitiation for the whole world, if He only died for a subset of mankind? Nope ​
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    All for whom He died. He laid down His life for His sheep alone --not the goats as well. The ones He did not die for He does not know in the salvific sense.
    No, propitiation does = means of salvation.

    The Lord has not propitiated the sins of each and every person. That would mean that each and every are in --or bound for heaven. No, He propitiated the sins of only those that Christ has laid down His life for.

    There is wrath of God for those for whom Christ died. So if your theory of universal redemption is valid then there are no human residents of Hell. Hell certainly embodies the wrath of God.

    You have to think these things through Van.
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Agree and Jesus Christ further tells us this...

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Brother Glen
     
  6. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Van needs to study what propitiation means. Propitiation is the satisfaction of God's wrath. If Jesus satisfied God's wrath for all, than there is no need for the wrath of hell since God's wrath has been quenched. However, we know that many will suffer His wrath in hell. So if Jesus satisfied God's wrath for all, why will His wrath be poured out on any? (standby for evasive maneuvers by Van)
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Either His death was indeed providing for God the means to save all sinners, or else it was the basis to have God save some sinners...

    cannot have it somewhere in the middle!
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Amazing, repeated attacks on my character and knowledge, but nothing on scripture. Not just by one Calvinist but by all of them.

    They seemingly have never studied the word and have no idea what propitiation means, unless they read my post on that subject.

    They claim either (1) Jesus is not the propitiation for the whole world, or (2) Jesus is not the means of salvation. Propitiation = Jesus = Means of Salvation!

    Jesus laid down His life as a ransom for all, not for some. Since God wants all men to be saved, He would provide the means of salvation for all men. Calvinism's view is simply absurd.

    Next, we get misinformation, asserting falsely that I advocate Universal Redemption!!! No quote will be forthcoming.

    Any yet again the inability to grasp the difference between providing reconciliation and receiving reconciliation manifests itself.

    Were these questions answered:
    1) Did you address when individuals are propitiated, when Christ died, or when individuals undergo the circumcision of Christ? Nope.

    2) Did you address why Christ became the propitiation for the whole world, if He only died for a subset of mankind? Nope ​

    On and on they will go, defending their views using one logical fallacy after another, such as attacking Van personally while evading his questions. You have got to love them folks.
     
    #28 Van, Apr 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2015
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Utterly false, Jesus does provide the means to save all sinners, but not all sinners are saved. Only those God chooses based on crediting their faith as righteousness are placed spiritually in Christ and are saved. So simple a child could understand it.
     
  10. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    So you're saying the definition of propitiation is "the means to satisfying God's wrath" and not "the satisfaction of God's wrath"??? Like I said, you don't know what "propitiation" means.
     
  11. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I would introduce Van to the bible in a 'color by #'s' pattern, but he'd eat all the crayons...

    Those Calvinists...gotta love'm folks...
     
  12. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Wrong again...we were propitiated when they drove those spikes through His hands and feet...

    Those Calvinists...gotta love'm folks...
     
    #32 convicted1, Apr 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2015
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Either believe your 'Vanology' or the bible...you decide...

    John 10:11...

    --I am the Good Shepherd; the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep.(KJV)
    --I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd risks and lays down His [own] life for the sheep.(AMP)
    --“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."(HCSB)
    --“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."(NASB)
    -- “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."(NET)
    --"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."(NIV)
    -- I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.(RSV)
    --I am a good shepherd; a good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep.(WYCLIFFE)
    --`I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;'(YLT)

    Vanology....OR the bible??

    Those Calvinists...gotta love'm folks...
     
  14. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Amen :thumbsup:
     
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Absolutely correct. Many who use 1 Jn 2:2 to argue Christ died for every human being, they are simply ignorant to what propitiation means ! Its obvious He did not propitiate God's wrath for every human being, for many are presently under His wrath now Jn 3:36

    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Now that would be a great contradiction if God has been propitiated on their behalf by the blood of Christ already !
     
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Because He didnt make all without exception righteous !

    One of the biblical reasons we know that Christ could not have and did not die for all men without exception, its because all men without exception shall not be declared /made Righteous as Per Rom 5:19

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Now who is foolish and unlearned enough to state all without shall be made Righteous when scripture tells us of the exclusion of the unrighteous 1 Cor 6:9

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    Certainly these unrighteous ones are not of those Christ's obedience shall make Righteous !

    The unrighteous :

    describes those being found guilty in God's court of law, i.e. as a binding, legal infraction against His law which calls for divine retribution for disrespecting true justice.

    That simply cannot apply to any for whom Christ died and satisfied God's Law and Justice in their behalf !
     
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Because He didnt make all without exception righteous !2

    That simply cannot apply to any for whom Christ died and satisfied God's Law and Justice in their behalf !

    You see, the very fact that Christ died for one, automatically makes them Righteous, because His Death was His Obedience that shall make them Righteous Rom 5:19 ! Not His Resurrection, His Resurrection did not pay satisfaction to God's Law and Justice, no,but His obedient life under the law and His substitutionary death did, and His Resurrection was proof, evidence that His Obedience unto death makes them He died for Righteous Rom 5:19 !

    Also the non imputation of sin makes them Righteous, which is necessitated if Christ is to die for our sins, because they must be imputed to Him in order for Him to die for them, which means they cannot be imputed to the ones He is dying for !

    So, non imputation of sin applies to everyone He died for, which non imputation makes them Righteous by having Righteousness imputed to them in turn for them not having sin imputed to them, proof here Rom 4:6-8

    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    So Vs 6 the blessedness of imputed righteousness without works, is the fruit of being of those Vs 8 whom the Lord will not impute sin !

    And the reason why God will not impute sin unto them, is because the sin of theirs has been imputed to Christ, for Him to die for !

    So this equates to all for whom He died, being made Righteous by Righteousness being Imputed to them without works Rom 4:6 which compliments Rom 5:19 being made Righteous by the Obedience of One !
     
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    God will not clear the Guilty !

    Ex 34:7

    Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear/acquit the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    But who are the Guilty before Him ? The Guilty are those Christ never knew, nor never died for, all such are Guikty before God, having not Christ as their Surety, meaning He was never for their sins liable to Gods Law and Justice ! So His Surety Death did not put away their sins before God's Law and Justice, never then had they been absolved of Guilt, But those for whom Christ died, it absolved them of all Guilt before God. It puts away the Guilt of sin and provides forgiveness of sins !

    Lets read Heb 1:3

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    Notice how it is stated that He by Himself purged our sins ! Thats important, because the word purge is the greek word katharismos:

    cleansing, purifying, purification, literal, ceremonial, or moral; met: expiation.

    a cleansing from the guilt of sins

    All for whom Christ died, by His Death alone, not by their faith, not by His Resurrection, but by His Blood alone, it cleansed them from the guilt of their sins !

    That was a done deal as He took a Seat on the Right Hand of the Majesty on High !

    This means all their sins have been remitted, they are clear before God, again solely by His Death.

    So the Only Ones that are not clear, whom God will not acquit nor forgive, is those Christ never by His Death purged their sins as Per Heb 1:3 ! Because if He would have, God's Justice could not hold them Guilty !
     
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    That He should have Mercy upon all !

    Rom 11:32

    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that[hina purpose clause] he might have mercy upon all.

    The All here in this verse, God imprisoned them into unbelief/disobedience, in order that, or for the purpose of, having Mercy Upon them for their Unbelief/disobedience ! So how can God condemned any of this all for unbelief/disobedience, when it was His Purpose to have Mercy upon them for it ?

    That would be God contradicting His Own Purpose of Mercy for them !

    Look, the All here are those Paul calls the Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23,24

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    These Vessels of Mercy are comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, the Called Vs 24

    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    So the All in Rom 11:32 are the Us of the Vessels of Mercy in Rom 9:23-24 !

    And the Mercy for those Vessels of Mercy are none other than the sure mercies of David Isa 55:3

    3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

    Which Covenant is ratified/confirmed by the Blood of Christ of Christ as indicated here Heb 13:20

    20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

    Hence, the connection with the sure mercies of David Isa 55:3

    3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
     
  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You had better hope that He did because you were under His wrath at one time
    MB
     
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