Heaven populated w/out the cross?

The point I was trying to make is this; in regards to Enoch and Elijah, when they left this earth, they went without their natural body being buried.
Enoch was translated out of here!!

Gen.5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Greek word used for translated in Heb. 11:5 methistēmi
1) to transpose, transfer, remove from one place to another

a) of change of situation or place

b) to remove from the office of a steward

c) to depart from life, to die


Now when Elijah left, he left in a chariot of fire and a whirlwind, being alongside Elisha at the moment of his departure.

2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2Ki.2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

So you see, Sister Ann, they went to heaven, and apparently their bodies were never laid in the ground, like the other OT saints....or at least it looks that way to me.

Their souls are "not guilty" because they(their souls) haven't committed even one sin. To be a sinner, once must have sinned. Babies have not sinned as you DoG's claim they have. The death sentence pronounced on us is in reference to our "outer man", and it will die, whether we be saint or sinner. Now once God imputes sin unto us, then we die spiritually(seperated from God) and need of saving.

Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, [/B]and I died.Paul plainly states here that he was alive once without the law. If he was alive, then he died, do you advocate a "fall from grace"?? I sure don't. We are born alive unto Him, and once He SHOWS US we are sinners in need of saving, then we die unto Him.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.I will ask this question again, how can you "slew" something that is already dead???

Rom. 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [/U]there is no transgression.[/U]

Matt. 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

I take this to mean that the "soul/spirit" of Elijah came back in John the Baptist. I could be wrong on this, however.....

I never said they went "without" Jesus' death, but they went "before" He actually died on the cross. They died in faith, looking towards the cross, whereas, we look back at the cross. I just stated that I BELIEVE that they (Enoch and Elijah) natural bodies were never buried. Moses, Aaron, Elisha, Jacob, Caleb, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, Noah, all of these OT saints died and were buried, with Moses being buried by God Himself. According to the scriptures, it looks like Enoch and Elijah's natural body was not laid in a grave. I do believe their natural body was changed to a spiritual body when they left because no flesh will glory in His prescense.

I hope I have cleared this up!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

It has another god besides the LORD—its self.

It's Michelangelo's Moses.

 

Your position is heretical, not orthodox. Sinners saved in any manner by grace through faith is anathema. Clearly someone doesn't know enough about the subject, alright.

 

Since I agree they are corrupt from conception, I guess what you believe is unscriptural, pagan claptrap.

 

Save me from your "very little training" education hoopla. It is apparent from your positions, including you hyper un-orthodox heresy agnostic type mysterious salvation you are not as educated as you think you are and have no business ever questioning the orthodoxy of others. Name one person or one commentary pre-Augustine that believed what he did or baptized a baby, which when taken to it's logical conclusion (one of your favorite pet phrases) makes it necessary.

 

Here's a real gem from Calvin's The Secret Providence of God:

 

"infant baptism is assumed in Irenaeus’ writings" http://www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp

...and...

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

I guess you believe Christ's 12 apostle really did baptize infants like Roman Catholics believe, and passed on to the Roman Catholic church that regeneration occurs by the Spirit through baptism, and passed that on to Origen? He was a liar, and if you cannot see this...please don't speak on comprehension. You will really appeal to Roman Catholics as orthodox? Strike that...if you believe in another way of salvation in the same manner they do, I guess you would.

 

At least he's consistent. As disgusting as that is, it's the logical conclusion to the whole system of Calvinism.

 

No. I think God must meet His standards. Infant damnation is not one of them.

 

God's word. I and many others have posted much scripture for this. I'm not going to repeat myself. You can also read Al Mohler's opinion on this, plus Charles Spurgeon and many others. They will have scripture references you can check for yourself.

 

Amy a quick question. What standards are you refering to?

 

Righteousness and justice.

 

Waiting for an answer, Mr. Lawson.