Heavens devils?

Good Point.

 

Good Point. Christ would never send Judas out with spiritual gifts and an evangelistic mission if he still needed to be converted.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Not that I'm doubting but where do you see Judas active in the ministry?

 

I was wondering myself. I know in Acts it says Judas obtained part in the ministry but don't know of anything he did. I am not saying he didn't I just can't think of any right now.

"17": For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

"18": Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

"19": And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

"20": For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

"21": Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

"22": Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

"23": And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

"24": And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

"25": That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.


What was his own place, it seems he had this place even before the transgression?

 

We are told in Luke 6 and John 6 that he was one of the twelve apostles. Peter said, in Acts 1:17, "For he was numbered with us and had obtained part of this ministry." In Matthew 26:50, Jesus called Judas "friend". In the Psalms, you have one of David's closest friends who betrays him.

Psalm 41:9 says, "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

The Lord quoted this Psalm in John 13:18 as being fulfilled through Judas in John 13:18: "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."

Judas was not the Lord's enemy! Psalm 55:12-14: "For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.

Matthew 10:1 tells us, "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." Then, it lists them and names Judas. He was not only a disciple (saved), but he was elect (called out)!

Luke 6:16: "And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor." The word "traitor" refers to a person who violates or goes against that which has been trusted to him. A traitor commits treason. A French sailor cannot be convicted of treason against a US ship.

Judas was a thief and he betrayed his Lord for self-gain, but he was still saved at one point.

So, if he is unsaved now, he must have lost his spiritual salvation, and we are told throughout Scriptures that's not possible.

 

I realize he was called and numbered with the 12. I know the part Judas performed was "that the scripture may be fulfilled". I know Judas seemed to be part of the visible ministry. Those are not my question at all.

Your quote above, disciple = saved? That is more where I'm coming from. The disciples, as they walked with Christ, were they saved at that time? Even their baptism, wasn't it just a baptism of repentance? Mt 16 Jesus said, "I will build". Was there a Church at that time? Is not our salvation or hope in being raised from the dead based on Jesus being raised (I Cor 15:14)?

Also keep in mind, there were people preaching, healing and casting out spirits in the name of Jesus whom Jesus said, failed to first obtain their own salvation. So can we say that because Judas worked with the others that he was saved?

I guess my real question is, can one who is converted, has a renewed heart and hs built his hopes on nothing less than Jesus, where would you find it in your heart to betray him? I am talking about a clean heart, one that was purged of the old man and filled with the spirit fo God. Where would betrayel be in his heart? This would equate to killing the pilot at 30,000 feet. All your hope is in that pilot, would you betray him?

I'm not saying Judas hated or was an enemy to Jesus but it appears he was not fully commited. He, like some Christians today, tried to hold on to Jesus with one hand and still hold on to the world with the other. That person is not fully committed. He merely has one foot pointed at the cross and the other pointed at self. He is unstable in this position and will not "stand" at the judgement.

 

I don't see where anything you posted indicates Judas was saved. Before Pentecost, there was no indwelling of the HS. In fact, while Jesus was on earth, the HS was not in believers at all because Jesus said he would send the HS after he left, and until he left, the "Comforter" could not come.

So I don't think any of the apostles were necessarily saved before Pentecost. And Judas was dead by then. They did not even realize who Jesus really was until after the resurrection - they were constantly confused. There were many concepts of the Messiah at that time -- they did not even understand Jesus when he said he had to suffer and be killed by men. They did not believe the women when they said Jesus was not in the tomb.

Judas betrayed Christ. I don't see how he could be elect when Jesus himself said it would have been better for him to have never been born. That's about as harsh a condemnation you can give anybody.

 

Here's an interesting article on Judas:
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct48.htm

Excerpt:

You really need to read the whole article.

 

Matt. 26:23-24 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. “The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

John 17.12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."


John 13:27 “Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him."

This is about as bad as it gets. I don't think the Bible could be any clearer about Judas' final destination.

 

son of perdition is (son of eternal damnation) Hard to believe he was ever saved for me.

 

No Sir, let me apologize if I have at all made you feel attacked. I agree, this is steel sharpening steel. I do know many people feel I can be quite harsh with words but genuinely in my heart I have nothing but love for my fellowman.

All those examples you sited were people who believed GOD, but did not commune with God in the flesh. Faith is great and I no way want to take away from its importance. I somehow hold those men to a different level (not faith) because they saw him, touched him, wanted him perform many maricles... Faith implies hope in the unseen.

 

To add to yours, Peter stated the confession of faith, "thou art the Christ etc..."

Believed = yes... Saved = ??????? I can't find that one in scripture.

 

:smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin: