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Hebrews 6:4-6

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by psr.2, Jun 20, 2004.

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  1. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    Ed so you know I have asked the moderator to deal with you. You have been unkind. You jump in with nothing to say. If you cannot conduct yourself like an adult christian then you should consider your ways.
     
    #41 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  2. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker New Member

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    The entire message of Hebrews 6:4-6 is that is impossible for them to fall away. Yes I agree what is says is that it is impossible to renew them but to me the intent of the verse is clear. It is impossible for them to fall away because if it were possible (not saying it is, just hypothetically, if it were) then it would be impossible to renew them. Since we know I John 1:9 which psr.2 used earlier, then we know that this cannot be true. Therefore it is impossible for them to ever fall away. This verse deals with the eternal security of the believer not their renewal.

    None of the other passages psr.2 has used make the case. In my earlier post I addressed each of them in order, but combined it must be noted that none of them relate to this verse in Hebrews and none of them make a case for it ever being possible for a believer to loose their salvation.
     
    #42 North Carolina Tentmaker, Jun 21, 2004
  3. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    Quote from Charles: I would argue that those in whom there is no change have never experienced salvation.

    Thanks for the reply but there is absolutely no scripture to back it up.
    A saved person is just as capable of sinning as a lost person. The only difference is who we yield our members to.
    Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    That is to saved folks. It is possible to be saved and live just as bad as a lost person.
    We will have to dig a little deeper.
     
    #43 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  4. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker New Member

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    I would have to say that you are incorrect about this also psr.2. The changed life is an evidence of the internal salvation.

    I agree with you that saved people are capable of sinning and that our flesh still tempts us after we are saved but we also have the spirit of God convicting us and moving us to do right. That is the war that goes on within us. Before we were saved we did not have this spirit.

    Remember James 2:26
    There should be an outward change in our behaviour and it is a proof of our salvation. It is not the works that save and God looks on the heart, but there still should be some difference.
     
    #44 North Carolina Tentmaker, Jun 21, 2004
  5. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    Hello tentmaker. I think you are getting your impossible in the wrong place. I am reading the verse as it said.
    You did not do well explaining the refernce to Rev 22 where God said he would take away their part out of the book of life. You said they never had a part. Now if I am forced to choose a side in this I will take God's side.

    Quote from tentmaker; None of the other passages psr.2 has used make the case. In my earlier post I addressed each of them i order, but combined it must be noted that none of them relate to this verse in Hebrews and none of them make a case for it ever being possible for a believer to loose their salvation.

    That my brother is a "tent" statement. You have thrown a tent over every thing I said and then said none of it matches. The bible all matches if we will study to show ourselves approved.
    You cannot take a verse in 1 John and say that a verse in Hebrews does not mesn what it says.
     
    #45 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  6. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    Absolutely correct tentmaker. "Should" There should be an outward change. No excuse not to be. But it is not mandatory.
     
    #46 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  7. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    "Should" That is exactly right. It is not mandatory and there is no excuse not to have a change.
     
    #47 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Actually these people
    are NOT saved and can be unsaved becasue
    they have never been saved.

    There are no saved persons
    during the tribulation period wrath judgements.

    The Chruch Age Christians all left before
    the trib stated.
    The Trib gentiles who get saved are
    all stillborn.
    The Jewish/Israeli persons who get
    saved are protected in the wilderness
    (Rev 12).

    That is all saved persons who could possibly
    be around. None of them could take the mark.

    About "stillborn Christians".
    This is a term created by the Early Church
    Fathers (the term is NOT in the Bible).
    "Stillborn Christian" refers to someone
    whose first act of faith results in
    their immediate martyrdom. Nearly all
    the gentiles saved in the Tribualtion Period
    Wrath Judgements will be stillborn Christians.
    (Revelation 20:4b)

    [​IMG]
     
    #48 Ed Edwards, Jun 21, 2004
  9. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    UH thanks anyway Ed. I'll stick with the bible.
    We have to at some point step out from behind the curtain of "well everybody knows that" and actually read what the bible has to say.

    Rev 22
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    They had a part in the book and God took it away.
     
    #49 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    #50 Ed Edwards, Jun 21, 2004
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother North Carolina Tentmaker -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
    #51 Ed Edwards, Jun 21, 2004
  12. KeithS

    KeithS New Member

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    Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6. As I recall my old Greek days - there are 4 clases of conditional clauses in Greek (I believe only 3 are fully represented in Scripture).

    The first class clause is the simple condition -"if this happens, then that results". It carries with it the idea of "since this has happened".

    The second class condition is the future condition. This is the one that truly says "if this should happen, then that will result".

    The third class condition is the assumed negative "if this were to happen, which by the way won't, then that would be the possible result".

    I believe that most mordern versions take the position of the third class condition (assumed negative) by translating verse 6 "and having fallen away" instead of "if they shall fall away".

    I don't have my tools handy, but any greek scholar want to look up the class of condition used by this passage. It may or may not shed light on the discussion.
     
    #52 KeithS, Jun 21, 2004
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The overall context of Hebrews is those who have become Christians have been riding the fence back and forth. As Christians are persecuted they being former Jews have gone back into Judaism. When it is "safe" to enter into the Christian arena then they leave Judaism.
     
    #53 gb93433, Jun 21, 2004
  14. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    Ed you are waving your own flag again. "Look at me"
     
    #54 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  15. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    Thanks Kieth but let's stick with the English shall we.
     
    #55 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  16. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    gb93433 Overall context is Jewish. Hence3:9 "When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years."

    The scripture has three applications
    1. historical
    2. devotional
    3. doctrinal

    We must see who God is talking to.
    clue number one the title of the book "Hebrews"

    We must see what time frame it is in.
    clue number2
    verse 1 chapter 1 Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    We are looking at a last days passage.
    I tried to tie this in with Matt. and Rev. earlier and was told that the verses had nothing to do with each other.
    If there is someone here that has a spark of interest in tis please let's communicate.
    Those who just want to come a spue venom and wave a banner no thanks.
     
    #56 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Revelation 22:19-20 (HCSB):

    I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this prophetic book, God will take away his share of the tree of life and the holy city, written in this book.

    Source textual variant, you know. [​IMG]
     
    #57 Ed Edwards, Jun 21, 2004
  18. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    Exactly as I said some just want to argue versions. Cannot get them to focus on content. Perfect display above. Go to Ed's other post and see the same thing.
    That's the trouble with a hobby horse Ed. They never go anywhere. They just sit and bounce in the same place. They only make people laugh.
    They despise those that actually move.
     
    #58 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
  19. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Try reading 6:1-3
     
    #59 gb93433, Jun 21, 2004
  20. psr.2

    psr.2 Guest

    Now you are talking my language.
    Hmm Some doctrinal changes here.
    Excuse me while I try to catch my breath. I was so over joyed that someone is actually looking at the words that my heart skipped a beat.
    Yes so what do you make of 6:1-3?
    Some new last days doctrine here huh?
    You see eternal security is a very real doctrine for the church age.
    It is also a new doctrine when we look at those in the Old Test.
    This plan changes inthe last days.
    I have been here all day and you are the only one to see it.
    Others began and quit in frustration.
    What do you say care to go on with this discussion?
     
    #60 psr.2, Jun 21, 2004
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