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Hell Is Not the Lake of Fire

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hark, Mar 2, 2021.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This thread claims scripture supports loss of salvation, which is of course not a Baptist distinctive.

    The Gehenna of Fire and the Lake of Fire appear to refer to the same place.

    None of the Hebrew or Greek words translated as "Hell" mean the same thing. Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, and Shoel all refer to different concepts.

    1) Where do lost people go when they physically die? Hades.
    2) Where do the lost people in Hades go? Great White Judgement
    3) Where do the lost people go after the Great White Judgement? Lake of Fire.
    4) Is the Lake of Fire and the Gehenna of Fire the same place? Probably :)

    The word "Hell" should be removed from scripture as it creates confusion.
     
  2. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    That is your claim and it is false.

    Prove it by scripture & apply it rightly for the context of the message.

    You just defeated your own argument here. If the word Hades refer to different concepts, and Gehenna refers to different concepts, and Tartarus refers to different concept, & Shoel refers to different concepts, then why not hell?

    Revelation 6:8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. NIV

    How do you apply this verse to mean when Hades is on earth with Death for how & when people will die physically during the great tribulation by sword, famine, & plague?


    So that includes all Bibles then and not just the KJV?

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; KJV

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; NIV

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment; NASB

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; ESV

    Clearly here "hell" is a holding place for the fallen angels chained in darkness waiting for their fateful judgment of being cast into the lake of fire.

    So you need to reassess points #2-4 on how you are applying His words to mean since it cannot be limited as you testify.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This thread claims scripture supports loss of salvation, which is of course not a Baptist distinctive.

    The Gehenna of Fire and the Lake of Fire appear to refer to the same place.

    None of the Hebrew or Greek words translated as "Hell" mean the same thing. Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, and Shoel all refer to different concepts.

    1) Where do lost people go when they physically die? Hades.
    2) Where do the lost people in Hades go? Great White Judgement
    3) Where do the lost people go after the Great White Judgement? Lake of Fire.
    4) Is the Lake of Fire and the Gehenna of Fire the same place? Probably :)

    The word "Hell" should be removed from scripture as it creates confusion.
     
  4. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    That is your claim and it is false.

    So that includes all Bibles then and not just the KJV?

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; KJV

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; NIV

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment; NASB

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; ESV

    Clearly here "hell" is a holding place for the fallen angels chained in darkness waiting for their fateful judgment of being cast into the lake of fire.

    So basically you are making a new judgment to get rid of the word hell in all Bible versions.

    So tell me what would replace the word hell in 2 Peter 2:4 to defer from the final judgment of the lake of fire? Can you do that? I think not.
     
    #84 Hark, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This thread claims scripture supports loss of salvation, which is of course not a Baptist distinctive.

    The Gehenna of Fire and the Lake of Fire appear to refer to the same place.

    None of the Hebrew or Greek words translated as "Hell" mean the same thing. Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, and Shoel all refer to different concepts.

    1) Where do lost people go when they physically die? Hades.
    2) Where do the lost people in Hades go? Great White Judgement
    3) Where do the lost people go after the Great White Judgement? Lake of Fire.
    4) Is the Lake of Fire and the Gehenna of Fire the same place? Probably :)

    The word "Hell" should be removed from scripture as it creates confusion.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    2 Peter 2:4 refers to Tartarus and not all English translations muddy the water with the mistranslation as "hell."
    CEB
    God didn’t spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into the lowest level of the underworld and committed them to chains of darkness, keeping them there until the judgment.
    CJB
    For God did not spare the angels who sinned; on the contrary, he put them in gloomy dungeons lower than Sh’ol to be held for judgment.
    CEV
    God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment.
    DARBY
    For if God spared not [the] angels who had sinned, but having cast them down to the deepest pit of gloom has delivered them to chains of darkness [to be] kept for judgment;
    DLNT
    For if God did not spare angels having sinned but handed-them-over to chains of gloom, having cast-them-into-hell, being reserved for judgment;
    DRA
    For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment:
    EHV
    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned but handed them over to chains of darkness by casting them into hell, to be kept under guard for judgment;
    EXB
    [L For if] When angels sinned, God did not ·let them go free without punishment [spare them]. [L But] He sent them to ·hell [L Tartarus; C a Greek term for the underworld] and put them in caves of darkness where they are being held for judgment [Gen. 6:1–4; Jude 6].
    HCSB
    For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;
    JUB
    For if God did not forgive the angels that sinned, but cast them down into the deepest abyss {Gr. Tartarus} and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    LEB
    For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment,
    NABRE
    For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;
    NTE
    God didn’t spare the angels who sinned, you see, but he threw them into the Pit, into dark caverns, handing them over to be guarded until the time of judgment.
    TPT
    Now, don’t forget, God had no pity for the angels when they sinned but threw them into the lowest, darkest dungeon of gloom and locked them in chains, where they are firmly held until the judgment of torment.
    WEB
    For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;
    YLT
    For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    In my personal understanding the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . shall be caught up . . .") takes place after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29, ". . . after the tribulation . . .), Matthew 24:30, ". . . they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven . . . ." 1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air . . . ." 1 John 3:2, ". . . he shall appear, we shall be like him . . . ."
     
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  8. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    But the tribulation is NOT the great tribulation for why this church was warned to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation in Revelation 2:18-25

    So yes.. after the tribulation of the days we are living in now, the rapture will come & after that, a calamity of fire will come on one third of the earth which is the western hemisphere for why the rest of the world as per the new world order, will be pulling resources for the world to buy & sell by the mark of the beast system in the coming the great tribulation.

    Compare with Him on how in Zechariah 14:1-5 has His feet touching down on the Mount Olives to do battle with with the returning saints against the armies marching upon Jerusalem and yet in Revelation 20:1-6, Satan is defeated & in the pit for a thousand years BEFORE the resurrection of those saints as described as having gone through the great tribulation period.

    So the rapture before the great tribulation are Christ the firstfruits as the Bridegroom to the bride and then they that be Christ's at His coming as the King of kings after the great tribulation.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The rapture will be for ALL who are live and saved in Jesus period!
     
  10. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Not just for those that are alive.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. KJV

    But not everyone saved by Jesus Christ will be ready as found abiding in Him ( Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8 ) nor willing to go ( Luke 14:15-25 & Luke 21:33-36 ) when He comes for why Jesus warns His disciples..

    That is why the prodigal son when he had given up his inheritance for wild living & although he can never get it back as spent as it was, he is still son for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him per John 6:37-40.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When the rapture hits, ALL in Christ will go, even those commuting sin right at that time!
     
  12. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Explain what happens to the saints at Thyatira if they do not repent of their fornication that they will be cast into the bed of the great tribulation to be killed with death as God is judging the churches..

    Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. ~ KJV

    So no. You are wrong. Christians are not to live in sin. We are to run that race by faith in Jesus Christ being their Good Shepherd to get them ready by us looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us put aside every weight & sin in being His disciples as vessels unto honor to be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes.. Hebrews 12:1-2 Or risk being a castaway as Paul warned in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here we see the inability to understand the text, because in this verse "hell" should be translated "Hades." Thus Hades is indeed different from the Lake of Fire. Hades is also a different place than Tartarus, or Gehenna or the Lake of Fire.

    So the valid observation from Revelation 20:14 is Hades Is Not the Lake of Fire.

    However, the Gehenna of Fire and the Lake of Fire are probably the same place.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Repeat in order to edit several references which were in error.

    2 Peter 2:4 refers to Tartarus and not all English translations muddy the water with the mistranslation as "hell."
    CEB
    God didn’t spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into the lowest level of the underworld and committed them to chains of darkness, keeping them there until the judgment.
    CJB
    For God did not spare the angels who sinned; on the contrary, he put them in gloomy dungeons lower than Sh’ol to be held for judgment.
    CEV
    God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment.
    DARBY
    For if God spared not [the] angels who had sinned, but having cast them down to the deepest pit of gloom has delivered them to chains of darkness [to be] kept for judgment;
    HCSB
    For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;
    JUB
    For if God did not forgive the angels that sinned, but cast them down into the deepest abyss {Gr. Tartarus} and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    LEB
    For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment,
    NABRE
    For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;
    NTE
    God didn’t spare the angels who sinned, you see, but he threw them into the Pit, into dark caverns, handing them over to be guarded until the time of judgment.
    TPT
    Now, don’t forget, God had no pity for the angels when they sinned but threw them into the lowest, darkest dungeon of gloom and locked them in chains, where they are firmly held until the judgment of torment.
    WEB
    For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;
    YLT
    For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am of the view this interpretaion is wrong. Those 7 letters were to the pastors of those 7 churches. Revelation 2:24-25 Was to that church. Revelation 2:26-29 is to all churches and believes.
     
  16. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Strong's Concordance has the Greek word "haides" as "from a - a 1 (as negative particle) and eidw - eido 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:--grave, hell."

    Since Hades can also mean the grave and can also mean "hell", then it is a matter of an opinion you are giving here for why discernment is needed when appyling His words as it is used in the text..

    If you check 2 Peter 2:4 where all 5 Bibles in comparison at this link below shows hell being used, Strong's Concordance shows the Greek word "tartaroo from where hell is translated from in all the 5 Bible versions as shown is defined as "from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell."

    So Tartarus is in Hades & considered the deepest abyss of Hades so you cannot say Hades is a different place than Tartarus.

    Now your contention is that hell should be removed, but you are not just attacking the KJV, but you are attacking those other 4 modern bibles that has 2 Peter 2:4 as hell that translated hell from Tartarus. In comparison with Revelation 20:14, is proof that Tartarus aka Hades and hell are seen as the same place in 5 Bible versions..

    Revelation 20:14;2 Peter 2:4 KJV;NIV;NKJV;ESV;NASB - And death and hell were cast into the - Bible Gateway

    So if you are trying to discredit the KJV in forming this judgment about why hell should be removed from scripture without really confirming with the 5 Bible versions to show it as proof & not an opinion, you may be premature in forming that judgment, however, from 5 Bible versions & Strong's Concordance has proven you were being hasty & wrong otherwise.

    Your opinion as stated "However, the Gehenna of Fire and the Lake of Fire are probably the same place." it should be noted that lake is derived from the Greek word "limne" as defined is "probably from limhn - limen 3040 (through the idea of nearness of shore); a pond (large or small):--lake."

    I am not ready to dismiss your opinion here since Gehenna as a reference could be used for the place called the lake of fire in scripture, but I doubt Gehenna was used as a reference to lake. Unless you can show me where Gehenna of fire is located in the Greek in scripture, I can accept the opinion that Gehenna can also be the place of final judgment, the lake of fire, but it would be better to have a scripture confirming it as such rather than a vague inference from any web site.

    Example at this link Strong's Greek: 1067. γέεννα (geenna) -- Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly They cited Revelation 20:11-15 for reference to Gehenna being used for the final resting place for the unredeemed but it was Hades that was used. Unless I am missing something here.. I do not see why they refer Gehenna to Revelation 20:11-15.

    Unless you have another proper reference of Gehenna being used for the lake of fire, that web site falls flat on proving it.

    I know we all prophesy in part & know in part, but we need His help to get pride out of the way to receive corrections & also confirmations in His words in order to be like iron sharpening iron for Him to prune us & bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him & His words & that includes me too.
     
  17. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Granted that the letter can be specific to that church at Thyatira, but it is also to be directed to all churches that err in the same way. Churches is plural in Revelation 2:23 so it is a warning to all believers as in all churches thru out time until the rapture to be ready for the rapture.

    That letter was directed to the church or the saints living at Thyatira, thus not to one specific gathering of believers in that city. As you pointed out in Revelation 2:24-25 how the rest of the saints that do not err as that church or the majority of those saints has done, they were to hold fast.

    Revelation 2:26-29 when it starts with "he who overcometh..." and ends with those who have ears, let them hear... the rewards I am seeing here are for those saints that did not repent because they all seem to ascribe to the saints serving the King of kings from all over the world & not living in that city as the firstfruits of the resurrection, but as they that be Christ's at His coming after the great tribulation. So the "he that overcometh" is Jesus as He will finish His work in those left behind & they will be serving Him as the King of kings in raising up the generations coming in His thousand years reign.

    I believe this is the right discernment since the rewards given after he overcomes for the saints are not something for the firstfruits of the resurrection. 5 warnings were given to 5 erring churches while 2 exhortations were given to 2 good churches; and the he who overcomes is directed to having Jesus overcoming those saints that did not repent in those 5 erring churches & did NOT hold fast in those 2 good churches.

    Case in point; for the 1st church, Revelation 2:7 is a reward not given to the firstfruits of the resurrection for they will have no need for the tree of life per Luke 20:34-36

    Revelation 2:11 is the reward for those resurrected as coming out of the great tribulation per Revelation 20:4-6 which is indicative because they may still be subjectable to the first death; physical death, but never the lake of fire. I am not sure why He would bother to refer to the second death at all unless the first death was signifying their resurrected state as being entirely different from the firstfruits who will never die per Luke 20:34-36

    So when I see the following rewards after He overcomes those still not ready, to get them ready to serve Him as priests to the King of kings, in Revelation 2:17 for the 3rd church, Revelation 2:26-29 for the 4th church to serve Him as rulers to the King of kings from certain places all over the world in raising up the coming generations in the millennium reign ,

    Revelation 3:5 is a reward for the 5th church seeing how He will deny them at the rapture event but not afterwards with the reminder that their names will never be wiped out of the Book of Life. thus the necessity for that assurance that He will never deny them from now on.;

    Revelation 3:12 is a reward for the 6th church those that do not hold fast, as those saints will be representing Him & His city New Jerusalem serving as priests in raising up the generations following. That is why they have His name written upon them to represent Him that will never be moved by misrepresenting Him. They will always be true witnesses of Him.

    Revelation 3:21 is the sitting with Him in His throne as one of the kings of the King of kings reigning with Him on earth as a similar but not the same thing for how Christ sits with the Father in Heaven but reigning as God.

    Anyway, God's warning & exhortations to the 7 churches in Revelation applies to all believers to be ready or else. Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today & forever, then His words to be ready for the rapture applies to all to take heed of those warnings & exhortations to be ready or else be left behind for when He has to finish His work in those saints by burning off of that foundation, all things that defile, ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) to make them ready to serve Him as the King of kings on earth., thus "he who overcometh" is Jesus Christ.
     
    #97 Hark, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hell is a word used to translate several very different biblical concepts. Any one who advocates for the use of "Hell" to translate more than one of these concepts is pushing mistranslation.
     
  19. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Can you prove that Gehenna, Hades & Tartarus are not used to translate very different places? Because by quoting me, I just did per one example.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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