Featured Hell: Traditional or Conditional?

And the drumbeat of misrepresentation continues:

Note all this time and effort sidetracked from discussion theology, by constant and systemic misrepresentation.

Then ICON chimes in with more false charges against me, sidetracking again discussion of eternal torment.

Eternal torment seems a fiction based on shoddy bible study.

 

hey van don't get mad at me I'm just an impartial observer DHK has made mincemeat out of your false ideas and all the other ones have joined in to make your false arguments toast.....I'm just here just to help you see it.....acknowledging you have a problem is the first step to recovery

 

Icon, one of your favorite posts is to misremember something in the unreferenced past and claim victory.

Folks, this is all they have, logical fallacies like attacking the person, i.e. acknowledging YOU have a problem, rather than addressing the questionable view of eternal torment.

 

I presented the Conditionalist view of Gehenna based on multiple scriptures, including:

a) Our all-powerful God can put an end to both the body and the soul in Gehenna, Matthew 10:28.
b) The fact that the lost will undergo eternal punishment in eternal darkness might mean eternal torment, but also might mean eternal separation from God, Matthew 25:46
c) The fact that the smoke from the torment of the lost will rise forever and ever might mean ongoing torment forever and ever, or simply that the consequence of being tormented in the Lake of Fire is forever, i.e. separation from God, Revelation 14:11.
d) The claim that since Satan and his co-horts will undergo eternal torment requires that humans put in the same place (lake of fire) will undergo the same punishment (eternal torment) is based on assumption. God does treat people differently, i.e. the punishment of some will be more tolerable than for others, Matthew 10:15.
e) Next, Revelation 20:10 is referenced, which is non-germane because it addresses the eternal torment of Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet. No one disagrees.
f) Next, Revelation 20:15 is referenced, which is non-germane because it addresses that all those whose name is not found in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. No one disagrees.
g) I see I missed at least one NT verse used by some to support eternal torment, Jude 13. Here, rather than reading it as the gloom of the outer darkness is eternal, they read it as those sent to the outer darkness will experience the gloom forever. Of course, I read it the other way. Ditto for 2 Peter 2:17 and Jude 1:7

 

Already answered.
The "God can" argument is illogical.
God "can" stand on his head and wiggle his toes too. He can do anything he wants to, so says Van. The "God can" argument fails.
God limits himself to his nature, to his word, and has limited himself in other areas as well. This has been explained to you already.
The "God can" view of interpreting scripture according to Van's interpretation is not what the Bible teaches, but this is what you are essentially saying.
"God can do what I say he can do." Arrogant and Preposterous!!

Key word: "might mean."
Our theology is based on "Thus saith the Lord," not on "mights, maybes, and perhaps." If you are so unsure about what you believe you are in deep trouble.

Mights and maybes don't cut it. Paul E. Little wrote two books. The first was titled "Know what you Believe," and the second, "Know why you Believe." IOW Know why you believe what you believe. If your beliefs are made up of mights and maybes you don't know why you believe what you believe. You are only considering possibilities.
I stand upon the promises of God's Word. I know what he teaches.

You have your facts mixed up? If you are quoting me, I never said that.
Let's consider actual scripture to get the facts straight:

[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/FONT]
--Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire. But look who is already there! It is the beast and the false prophet. Who are they? They are people like you and I--the antichrist and the false prophet. They are men. One is a political leader and the other a religious leader. I never said anything about Satan here. There is no annihilation for these people. If not for these people, why not for others? You have no answer here except "God treats people differently. Not good enough.
Do you really think that "God treats people differently" is enough to build an entire doctrine on?? Actually the Bible states: "God is no respecter of persons," so your statement goes against God's Word.

And therefore it is germane. The beast and the false prophet are no different in their human nature then you are.

If no one disagrees then you should have no problem agreeing that the context of verse 15 is the same with verse 10, "and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." That defeats your entire argument.

What other way. Eternal is eternal. And they will experience that eternal punishment forever. That is the only way to read that verse. There is nothing good in that verse for the one being punished. I don't know how you can get anything good out of it.

[FONT=&quot]Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.[/FONT]
Forever means for all eternity. It is reserved for them.

(EMTV) raging waves on the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars for whom the darkness of the netherworld has been reserved forever.

(Darby) raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shames; wandering stars, to whom has been reserved the gloom of darkness for eternity.

(ESV) wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

This gives you an idea what the verse is speaking about. It is also called the netherworld. It is the gloom of darkness. It is forever. It is where they will live or be forever. They will be foaming out their shame during this time.
Darkness and fires of torment will be mixed together. The scriptures do not contradict each other, but the human mind cannot always comprehend the supernatural things that God has created. This perhaps is one of your problems.

 

for you Van;

aw pink;http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/pink_eternal_punishment.html

 

JL Dagg....http://founders.org/library/dagg-vol1/bk8c5/

 

I do not find anything in scripture that suggests there will be any amount of remorse from those consigned to hell. What scripture does say is there will be weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. The latter characterizes the whole. Those consigned to hell will not be remorseful but instead will be fist in your face angry. They will be so arrogant and angry that they will shake their fist at God and say "Who are you to put me here". The gnashing of teeth shows this very thing.

 

Folks, the misrepresentations continue unabated. Did I say ""God can do what I say he can do?" Nope, no quote will be forthcoming. I did say God can do what God says He can do, such as in Matthew 10:28.

Next, my view that more than one possible understanding of God's word is possible is disparaged, yet the DHK way or the highway attitude is lifted up. OK

Next, DHK says he knows what God teaches. OK

Next, DHK says he did not say since Satan and his cohorts will be tormented eternally, those tossed into the same place will get the same punishment. But here is is:

Folks, enough said.

The next eternal torment guy says eternal means eternal. Duh. That is not in contention. Does punishment mean torment or confinement, i.e. separation from God? That is the issue and was not addressed. Go figure.

Next, we get destruction means ongoing torment, but in Hebrews 11:28 the killing of the firstborn is in view, where God put an end to their life.

Next, we get yet another effort to redefine "punishment" as torment (misery) but that is not the meaning of the word.

Then we get yet another off the shelf and non-germane argument that those who suffer in Gehenna will not be purified. No one said they would. They will be tormented, and eternally separated from God.

Next we get Plato's view that the human soul is immortal. OK, even though God said He can destroy it.

Finally and mercifully the fusillade of fictions comes to a close, with the assertion eternal separation from God cannot be thought of as eternal punishment. OK, but that Sir is your assumption.

 

Icon had quoted A.W. Pink. Here is just a small excerpt:

"The 'eternal damnation' of the wicked will no more have an end than will the 'eternal salvation' of the redeemed. The 'everlasting destruction' of unbelievers will prove as interminable as the 'everlasting glory' of God. To deny the former is to deny the latter. To affirm the everlastingness of God is to prove the endlessness of the misery of His enemies."

 

That is why BOTh Heaven and hell MUST be eternal, as one reflect and shows off His glory in the redemned, while the other shows off His hoiness and justice in the lost...
And each of them are described with same word used to describe an unlimited period of time...