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Heresy and Hogwash

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pinoybaptist, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    I can't believe that I'm agreeing with Standing Firm. Is the sky falling?
     
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I believe this is where I came in!!!!!!!!

    BBob, :laugh:
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Good morning, Mr. Pastor_Bob. I trust you (as well as Mr. SFIC), have had a good night's sleep. No. Never did I say you referred to my belief as "hogwash".

    Here is post #27 for your benefit, and just so you see that I am not a liar.

    (quote):"The gentleman who calls himself standing firm in Christ did not call me a heretic. Yet, that is.
    Somebody else calling himself a pastor said that, in the same thread.
    He (meaning SFIC who is the subject of this entire paragraph [pb])simply referred to what I stated as somebody else's statement, in another thread, which I also happen to believe, hogwash.
    I don't think that is a very nice way of trying to convince somebody of an opposite persuasion." (end of quote.)

    so now, how can you be so sure that your understanding of the term "whole world" or "all men" is the correct understanding if you miss what post #27 is saying, and think that I am speaking of you as the one who used the word hogwash ?

    Two things I resent here, sir.
    First, your referring to my statement as heresy.
    I trust that you know what the word means.
    It is a word you can apply strictly, according to its definition, to your own local church.

    (quote) opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, esp. of a church or religious system.(/quote)

    The idea that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole of mankind is not the orthodox or accepted doctrine among all Christendom, as I have already stated in post #1.

    Secondly, the Baptist Board is not a church. This is a discussion board where all colors of Baptists are represented. This is not a board for Primitive Baptists only, or Southern Baptists only, or Calvinistic Baptists only, or Semi-Pelagian Baptists only.

    There were posters here who do not believe that a believer who dies goes to be in heaven with Jesus, I wish not to mention names, why have they not been tagged heretics, or their thoughts heresy ? What do you think of the scripture that says "absent in the body, present with the Lord" ?

    There were posters here who do not believe that a believer is eternally secure. Why were they not tagged heresies ? Do you believe that a believer is eternally secure ?

    There are posters here who question the accepted doctrine that God separated Himself from Jesus at the cross. Why is that not heresy to you ?

    Yet, you, sir, have called on the posters of the board to gang up on me as a heretic, when I proferred someone else's statement (of which I happen to be in agreement), which, by the way, is an interpretation shared by many on this board also.
    Your opinion is one thing, sir. You are entitled to it. Publicly and in writing calling or insinuating that someone is a heretic, especially when not properly applied, is another.

    No, sir. I am a dumb person. I have no innate intelligence like most of you distinghuished posters here.

    I simply follow the Bible's rules of interpretation itself.
    Here a little, there a little, comparing Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual.

    I do not follow the rules of interpretation of Bible colleges that churn out graduates who later on become mouthpieces of the doctrines and theologies instilled in them in their 3 or 4 years of Bible college.

    For example, it has been my observation that of my class of 30 students, there are 25 who have "inherited" the hatred for the Doctrine of Grace that our "distinghuished" (sarcasm there, this time) Bible college professors have drilled into their heads for 3 years, and froth at the mouth in their pulpits against those who adhere to that doctrine.

    I had occassion to hear one of them speak, once, in the pulpit of the church I used to pastor, and was struck by the fact that this guy has not listened to John Mc'Arthur yet, and here he is using the same terminologies applied by our teachers against those who are known to be adherents to the Doctrine of Grace. Although I was not at that time an electionist, I never asked him to speak at our church again, classmate or not.

    I do not trust human reasoning. Human reasoning is biased in favor of sin, whether the reasoning is being done by the elect, or the unelect.

    But with this very Scripture you quoted, you are proving what I am saying, sir.
    Tell me, do you teach your congregation that they are to pray for the "lost" , the "unsaved" ?
    Do you teach that they are to "reach out" to the "unsaved" ?

    If the Savior's intended use of the word for world here is the same as the intended meaning of 1 John 2:2, then why isn't He praying for the whole world ?

    I should think that He who said "the disciple is not above his master" should also teach His disciples at that present time that they are to pray for the whole world.

    Now I also preach, sir, although, like I said, I don't have the "Rev" before my name, neither do I care for that or any other title, save Slave of Christ, and even that I am totally unworthy of, for many times I think and act as if I am my own master. And oftentimes, to drive home a point, I resort to examples and illustrations, as the Master has done, and I am sure you have done.

    But, is there just one world in this world ?

    Tell me, do you speak and understand all the language of an accountant, or mathematician, or sociologist, or biologist, or physician, and do you feel an affinity with these, everywhere ?

    Do you speak and understand all the jargon and lingo and principles of software engineers, and computer scientists, or nuclear engineers, or biological scientists everywhere and anywhere in this world, and feel totally at ease and in affinity with them ? Do you enjoy reading their writings and magazines and know exactly what they are talking about in their illustrations and formulas and theorems ?

    Do you speak and understand the ways and language of the streets ? Are you able to mix with those addicts and convicts and ex-cons and prostitutes and pimps and homos and lesbos and pickpockets and what this society generally look down to as trash and not feel threatened by them, or them feel threatened by you, because you are part of them ?

    There are worlds within these world, sir.

    Tell me, do you feel comfortable singing "This is My Father's World" ?

    I don't, to be perfectly honest, and so when that song is on the list of any church service I have gone to before I even embraced the Doctrine of Grace, I shut up.

    How can this be my Father's world ?

    The guy who wrote that song, with all due respects to his memory, probably lived a very sheltered life and has never seen the hatred and violence and sin in the streets and colonies and even next door.

    How can this be my Father's world ?

    Wars, strifes, wanton sex and violence, pessimism, atheism, anti-God philosophies, humanism.

    Yet there IS a world I feel happy in.

    The world of my fellow believers, whose spirit I share, whose language and ways I understand even with their individual peculiarities, whose hopes and visions I also have, the hope of heaven in Christ.
     
  4. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    After re-reading this thread and then perusing other posts by this brother, I conclude that a discussion would be most fruitless and nothing more than a waste of my time. I have far better things to do than engage in sarcastic rhetoric.

    I have a bus route to visit this morning. I'm going to invite all the children I visit this morning to our Easter service tomorrow. They will clearly hear the gospel message and have an opportunity to trust Christ. If I thought for a moment that one of those children were predestined to hell, and not one of the elect, I would quit the bus ministry and quite possibly the ministry altogether. Again, what a dangerous false doctrine.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Good morning, Mr. SFIC.
    I trust you had a good sleep.
    I have not "questioned" his position as a pastor.
    That's what he calls himself, so be it, and that's what I referred to.

    You remind me of when I was a little boy.
    There were three close friends I had.
    One day, as boyhood goes, I had a problem with one of them.
    So he and I with our other two friends settled the issue at the back of the school. Just us four.

    After the "settlement", the other boy, after I was gone and after we shook hands, walked up to one of our friends and asked him if it were true that his father was a detective.

    The other said "no", he's a police lieutenant.
    Well, (my name) said he was a detective (in a manner which showed I did not say so in a complimentary way).

    Next day, my other friend and I had a problem.
     
    #45 pinoybaptist, Mar 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2008
  6. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    You're the one who came at me punching, Mr. Pastor_Bob.
    You brand what I believe as heresy, and wonder why others have not started in on me.
    I throw a few kicks and punches of my own, and I am the unreasonable one ?

     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear brother pinoy,

    I see you are involved in another debate about one of the usual topics.

    I would like to engage you in a couple of points which you have commented upon.

    First: I am not a TULIP adherent or a “Calvin-ist”.
    But I have been categorized as a Christmas Calvinist, though I reject the title more than what it signifies – a no “L” Christian (take the “L” out of TULIP (NO-EL)).

    There are several passages of Scripture upon which I base my decision.

    Second: I would like to answer your statements below:



    I have no problem assigning these people as elect.

    However SFIC has the answer to your objection with the following passage:

    John 1
    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    In this passage I believe there is no question as to the identity of “His own” .

    The important point of this passage in terms of your citation of the abstracts from Hebrews 11 would be that the context determines “His own” or “His people”.
    In the Matthew passage “His people” could therefore be Israel when compared to this passage (John 1:11). This could then be bolstered up by the following passage in Matthew:

    Matthew 21
    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    It’s possible.

    Back to the John 1 passage:
    We also have the mystery of the co-operation of God and man in the John 1 passage as to outworking of salvation in the time continuum:

    Man: “as many as received Him.
    God: “to them gave he power to come the sons of God;

    The ultimate cause: “the will of God”.

    Here is another point: “He shall save his people from their sins” does not address the differences between being a propitiation for the sins of the world and actually carrying through the work of propitiation to justification (Personally I make a distinction between propitiation and justification).

    While the sins of the non-elect are propitiated, they themselves are not justified because they remain in the condition of wickedness( 1 John 5:19).

    As a side issue, there is a less likely identity of Israel from “the whole world” phrase in 1 John.

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

    So we have the “whole world” which is in the hand of the wicked one as having their sins propitiated.

    Let me now tie this together with your second citation which will be quoted in part:

    OK, let’s compare this to a like passage earlier in this book:

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    While God “bought them” they evidently were never justified-sanctified.

    Some might object: Why would the Lord propitiate someone’s sins, even pay the purchase price of their salvation and yet they are allowed to die without justification?

    First, because He can:
    Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

    And then He has His reason(s) which is very general in nature:

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    God bless you brother Pinoy.

    HankD
     
  8. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Brother HankD:

    It will take me a while to get back to you.
    Usually what I do when trying to discuss at length is copy the post to my note pad and answer it from there, and then paste back the whole document to the answer box here.
    That way, I feel my answers will be more coherent and organized.

    I would like to thank you for your gracious approach to this discussion.

    In Christ's Grip:

    pinoybaptist
     
  9. chuck2336

    chuck2336 Member

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    HankD, that was a very well thought out post.

    :thumbs:
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    **Insult removed**
     
    #50 standingfirminChrist, Mar 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2008
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Yeah, I do.


    **Insult removed**
     
    #51 pinoybaptist, Mar 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2008
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK, when you re-paste you might run out of room.
    I had to shorten my post in response to you in order for the BB buffer to accept it, so when you respond you don't need to give my entire post if you dont want or can't.

    Anyway this is certainly not personal nor do I think you (or anyone) more or less worthy than myself for holding a different view concerning this difficult (at least to me) matter.

    I took note some time ago that Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them".

    I thought it interesting that He did not say "by their doctrine ye shall know them" (although a case could be made from 1 John for that issue).

    So, for me, the fruit of the Spirit is the tell-tale sign of the regenerated children of God.

    Speaking of 1 John, it has seemed to me that the following passage :

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
    Particularly

    Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:​

    That the confession (acknowledging) is not only from the physical lips but of the Spirit/spirit. If a person's life speaks the words of the Spirit (love, joy, peace longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc) then it's not a big deal to me how they choose to explain the ways of God (in which are some things hard to be understood), and His salvation.


    Your brother
    HankD
     
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Brother HankD:

    I just got home and am currently working on your posts. It may be tomorrow night when I repost as I will be editing my post to make it coherent and organized.
    I think you are right and I might run out of space here.
    If they close this thread then I'll start a new one.

    You have a blessed Sunday.

    In Christ's Grip:

    pb
     
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    And you as well brother.

    HankD
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Dear Brother hankD:

    I am truly sorry for the delay. Lots of things happening right now.
    Yesterday was of course Sunday, and except for a peek at the Board, I try to keep that day entirely for the Bible and for my wife.
    Today, this morning I got calls for an interview from two jobs I applied for which I already forgot about. I don't even remember what jobs they were when I got the calls, though I remembered the companies.:laugh:

    Funny how man likes to attach labels to every one, eh ?

    Good. We agree on that, then.

    Where did SFIC post this answer ? I didn't see it in my thread about "Heresy and
    Hogwash".If it was on another thread I may have missed it.

    It's not just "possible". These passages do directly speak of national Israel.

    The ultimate cause is that they were all born from above by the will of God. They followed Christ because, as the Lord put it Himself, "no man can come to me except the Father draw Him".
    The cause of the conflict between SFIC, another gentleman, and myself is because SFIC called the doctrine of Limited Atonement hogwash, and the other gentleman referred to it as heresy, because like yourself, perhaps, they believed that the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ was shed for all of
    humanity.
    If this is true, then all of humanity is redeemed and all the sin of humanity is atoned for, otherwise it will follow that Jesus Christ died for all but redeemed no one in particular.
    If Jesus Christ died for all but redeemed no one, then something has to be done by someone in order for the redemption to be effective, and if something has to be done by someone in order for the redemption to be effective, then it is no longer grace alone, but grace plus.
    On the other hand, if everything is God's work, from planning to execution to fruition (I am speaking of the eternal salvation of man), then there has to be no input from man, and anyone who receives or received Christ does or did so because that individual is of the number for whom redemption, atonement, and salvation was authored for.

    I will have to ask you to clarify what you feel to be the distinctions.

    But this thought runs contrary to Romans 8:29-30 which shows a continuum of processes. One cannot be foreknown, and not be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, neither can one be both foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, but not called, and one cannot be foreknown, predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, called, but not justified, and one cannot be foreknown, predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, called, but not justified, but not glorified.
    Here is the complete verse:
    29.For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image
    of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30.Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called ,
    them he also justified : and whom he justified , them he also glorified

    Following your interpretation, before humanity's sins can be propitiated, all of humanity will first have been foreknown, then each and every member of humanity would be predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, and then each and every member of the human race will then have his sin propitiated before God chooses whom He calls, justifies
    and glorifies.
    The continuum, therefore, ceases at propitiation.
    From then on God stops at a fork in the road if you will, and starts choosing whom He justifies and from there on, glorifies.
    And even at predestination, which purpose is to conform the predestined to the image of His Son, God already fails in His purposes, because not all are born from above, not all will bear the image of the heavenly at the resurrection, and not all bear the image or likeness of the Son in His service and dedication to the Father and love for the brotherhood, and
    love for the word of God.
    Let's try to give this more imagery, if you will.
    God loves all of humankind, sends His Son to redeem humankind, the Son obeys and does the will of the Father, He goes to that cross to shed His blood and become the propitiation for the sins of humanity, and then the Father proceeds to appropriate the blood of His Son only
    for those He elects. But He elected all of humanity, that was the very purpose for the
    death of His Son, wasn't it ? So, why should He now appropriate the blood for only some and justify some only and not all of humanity whom He professed to love and foreknew ?

    Also, 1 John 5:19 itself separates the "us" from the world. It is a theme which constantly runs in Scripture. "Us" and "they", "we" and "them", "the world" and "us". Here is the verse:

    "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. "

    In my language, Filipino, there is a distinct word used in the religious sense, if you will, that distinghuishes between world as in the whole earth and its inhabitants, and the unbelieving world (in the religious sense) versus the believing world.

    Mundo which is Mondo in Italian I think is world as in the whole earth and its civilizations.

    Sang-lee-butan, on the other hand, is when a preacher or a believer refers to the unbelieving world, as when a church member marries one who is of the "world".

    This is the same sense in which John is speaking.

    (I will have to do maybe two or three installments in answer to your post because I really would like to accord you back the respect and graciousness you have shown towards a brother, by trying to organize my thoughts).

    I trust the Lord was there during your services.

    God bless.
     
  16. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    You are now getting away from "Limited Atonement" and moving toward "Irresistible Grace."

    You referenced John 6:44 but allow me to add verse 45:
    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (KJV)


    These very verses actually refute the teaching of irresistible grace rather than support it. The word "draw" does not mean "force." According to other passages in the Word of God, it cannot possibly mean "an irresistible drawing." The same Greek word helkuo which is used for "draw" in verse 44 is found in John 12:32 which says, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

    If the word "draw" in John 6:44 teaches an irresistible drawing, then the Bible would be teaching in John 12:32 that "all men" would be irresistibly drawn to Christ. We know that this is certainly not happening. The word "draw" in both texts means that Christ will attract all men. This is in agreement with the entire Word of God.

    In verse 45, it is clearly teaching that all men who have heard and learned of the Father also have the opportunity of "coming" to Christ of their own free will.
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes, He shed His blood for all humanity, that is what someone believes who does not adhere to “limited atonement”.


    Your reasoning (forgive me brother for the word which follows, but I can’t think of any other way to say it) fails at the point in which you say “, otherwise it will follow that Jesus Christ died for all but redeemed no one in particular”. Not so IMO, He propitiated (satisfied the wrath of God for the sin of the human race) but only those who receive Him does He give the power to become the sons of God:

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Allow me to make a review and an addition to the passages previously quoted in an earlier post:

    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    In what sense can the living God be the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe?

    Again I would like to point out the passage in which we are taught that there are those who shall be destroyed because they denied the Lord who bought them.

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    I suppose one could say that these false teachers are actually saved.
    In fact that is the only way to interpret this passage without the undeniable conclusion that the Lord has “bought” these men.

    Or one would have to assign some other meaning to the word “bought” (agarazo - to buy redeem or ransom).

    And then there is the usual method of interpretation of this passage among our non-osas brethren and it is a very simple one. They were once saved but now they have forfeited their salvation. I am not aware of any other interpretations.

    The word is used in the following passages.

    1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

    1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

    Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    So, those who are of the household of God are both propitiated and justified while the others are propitiated only. Remember, the propitiation is Godward, dealing with His wrath while justification in manward dealing with His position before God.

    Those false teachers as well have been bought but not justified.
    And now being His property, they belong to the Lord and will (even in their eternal separation from God with it’s punishment and suffering) glorify Him.

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    I shouldn’t go any further, I may have to shorten what I have already posted except to answer the inevitable question: Why, why would God do it this way, well as has already been posted : because He can, He does whatsoever He pleases and then perhaps as He told John the Baptist: “to fulfill all righteousness” and “that every mouth may be stopped”.

    And yes, I believe it is all of God and none of us.

    Good night brother

    Proverbs 3:24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.


    HankD





     
    #57 HankD, Mar 25, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2008
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear brother Pinoy,

    Please don't feel obligated to answer.
    I really just wanted to give you my point of view.

    So we disagree, what will it matter a million years from now?

    HankD
     
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