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Heretical Teaching of Origen-like Allegory? Parts 1 & 2

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, May 7, 2014.

  1. Protestant

    Protestant Active Member

    Jul 6, 2013
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    Allegory: “Allegory is a figure of speech in which abstract ideas and principles are described in terms of characters, figures and events. It can be employed in prose and poetry to tell a story with a purpose of teaching an idea and a principle or explaining an idea or a principle. The objective of its use is to preach some kind of a moral lesson.”

    Examples of Allegory: Animal Farm; Pilgrim’s Progress; Faerie Queen.


    The above examples of allegory describe fictional narratives which contain underlying significant political, religious and/or moral themes which are obvious to those with sufficient intelligence/spiritual maturity.

    Non-fiction: “Non-fiction is a story based on real facts and information. Non-fiction is a narrative, account, or other communicative work whose assertions and descriptions are believed by the author to be factual.”


    History: “The branch of knowledge dealing with past events.”


    When speaking of past events concerning factual, non-fiction Church history, Christian martyrdom, as well as the united testimony of the Saints, for DHK to cry ‘allegory’ is not only a logical fallacy on his part, it also reveals a desperate attempt to introduce an ad hominem attack accusing me of Origen-like heresy.

    As Christians we should understand that all history is the outworking of God’s Providence which, in turn, is the outworking of God’s eternal decrees concerning the predestined destinies of all peoples, tribes and nations which, in turn, is the outworking of God’s perfect and holy will.

    We are taught that the OT history of Israel has been written for our benefit and warning: Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    In like manner, NT Church history has equal value and meaning.

    Without sufficient knowledge of our Christian past – invaluable information which has been preserved for any serious Christian to discover - the book of Revelation becomes a confusing and unintelligible jumble of symbols which, to the average reader, defies interpretation.

    However, when one investigates past events and people, a pattern emerges which begins to correlate with the symbolism and events portrayed in the Revelation.

    Futurists deny the relevance of Church history, positing the bulk of the Revelation in the by-and-by future, thereby negating any positive identification of its major character: The scarlet Beast, aka: the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Antichrist.

    Thus, when the Pope is brought to their attention as the only man in history who has fulfilled all the prophecies, Futurists dismiss the facts as irrelevant.

    Their un-provable, un-testable and irrational theories and hypotheses are more beloved than prophetic, provable truth.

    Therefore, I will present evidence which has scriptural authority....which Futurists cannot gainsay.

    Evidence which the reader may not have considered.
  2. Protestant

    Protestant Active Member

    Jul 6, 2013
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    Heretical Teaching of Origen-like Allegory? – Part 2

    I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Angels have the spirit of prophecy.

    John has the spirit of prophecy.

    John’s Christian brethren also have the spirit of prophecy.

    And they [Christians] overcame him [Satan and his false accusations] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    This verse speaks directly to the Christian martyrs who were killed due to their faith.

    They testified for the truth of Christ as well as against the lies of their adversary, whoever that might be.

    This testimony led to their deaths.

    This fact is true whether studying the ancient Roman persecutions or the Papal Holy Roman persecutions, Crusades and Inquisitions.

    In either case, their testimony was truthful.

    We know this to be so because Satan, the father of lies, is overcome only by the truth, which sets free the one in bondage to him.

    The Revelation is a prophecy, a revealing to Christ’s ‘servants’ of the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

    The prophecy consists of events current to John’s time frame as well as those future.

    Those future events are not limited to a beginning of 2,000 + years in the future as the Futurists would have us believe.

    Rather, they are declared to be things which must shortly come to pass.

    Jesus was a Prophet. John was a prophet.

    Those who have the spirit of prophecy, as did John, are prophets. They are brethren like him.

    Prophets are important members of the Body of Christ:

    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

    1st Cor. 12 confirms this truth.

    The authors of the Bible were prophets whose writing was inspired by God.

    Old Testament prophets spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    A note of caution is now due.

    The Bible is comprised of God’s final Word to us.

    Today there are legions of false prophets who claim a ‘Word from the Lord,’ a new revelation.

    That fact does not negate the truth that the testimony of Jesus: the spirit of prophecy......is still alive and working.

    In whom is the Spirit of Prophecy working?

    In other words, who are God’s true prophets in the Church Age?

    Answer: They are those who have been moved by God to speak His words.

    You ask, Who are they?

    The Bible is explicit as to who they are.

    Incredibly, in the Gospels Jesus gives four separate accounts detailing to whom and by what means the spirit of prophecy is given to men.

    Christians are well educated to the fact that when Jesus mentions something twice we are to take special heed…..anything with a ‘verily, verily’ attached is significant.

    But when He states and re-states something four times, of how much more importance could it be?

    Below I list the four scriptures in question:

    But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. (Matt. 10:20)

    But when they shall lead you and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (Mark 13:11)

    And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. (Luke 12:12)

    They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
    And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
    . (Luke 21:12-15)

    Unless you erroneously believe Christ’s words are addressed solely to those of His day, the unbiased Christian must give credence to Christ’s words as applying to all generations of Christians.

    Otherwise, it is possible to eliminate Christ’ statement to Nicodemus, ‘Ye must be born again,’ as irrelevant to our generation.

    To whom do these Scriptures apply?

    They apply only to those Christians who are brought before religious Inquisitional councils because of their Christian faith.

    They will be deemed heretics for their beliefs which are in opposition to that of their adversaries.

    They will speak only as God has commanded; whether it be by the Father, Son or Holy Ghost.

    These are they who have the spirit of prophecy.

    These are they who speak divine truth.

    These are they who have prophetic wisdom.

    And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    The mind which has prophetic wisdom understands the identity of the woman, Mystery Babylon.

    Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    The mind which has prophetic wisdom understands the identity of the Beast, the Man of Sin.

    Those who have such a mind have been given revelation knowledge of prophecy fulfilled.

    Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Next: Part 3: The United Holy Ghost Testimony of the Martyrs and Saints
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Jul 13, 2000
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    The Bible is historical not allegorical. Why change fact into fiction? Would you do that with your own American history? Why would you do that with the history of the Jews? It doesn't make any sense. I have many American history books. Not one of them are written as an allegory. Why would you want to treat the Bible that way? You make a mockery of Biblical history in the same way you would make a mockery of American history if you dared to write it allegorically.
    Would the stripes on the flag represent a skunk?? Yes it is mockery. The same allegorical mockery you give to the Bible.
    No problem here.
    Yes, but it is history, not allegory.
    The Bible interprets itself. When man comes and inserts his own thoughts and ideas from his own culture, view of history, etc., he tends to sensationalize the events of the Bible, allegorize it, and come up with extreme interpretations that the Lord never intended.

    Some principles:
    1. The Bible is a timeless book. It was written for all generations, not just one generation.
    2. The Bible is always relevant. It is just as relevant now as it was in the first century.
    3. There is no time in heaven. Time exists only on earth where the earth spins on it axis and revolves around the sun.
    4. Christ could have come in Paul's time, Peter's time, 30 years later in John's time, in Wycliffe's time, in Spurgeon's time, in D.L Moody's time, in Billy Graham's time, or any time now, or in the next thousand years. In the next thousand years a lot more history will have passed under the water.
    On the time line of history from 3,000 A.D. looking back to the time of Christ, how are you going to divide up history when the coming of Christ is always imminent as the Bible teaches. John prayed, "Even so come Lord Jesus!" He expected his coming at the end of the first century, and we do in the 21st century irrespective of what has happened in history.
    So did Christ, and all the Apostles. Christ told them to watch and pray.
    All of the Apostles told the early believers that His coming was imminent, at any time. Not one of them taught that certain historical events had to come to pass.
    I believe we have a better handle on those characters than you do.
    The Pope is a possibility. But at the most it is still speculation. The Bible does not spell out P-o-p-e. It could be another religious or political figure. One cannot be so dogmatic.
    It should be interesting. You can't stuff a square in a circle. But you do have your little box of theology all neatly packaged.
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Jul 13, 2000
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    Posted by Protestant
    I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Angels have the spirit of prophecy.[/quote]
    Where do you get that from?
    Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
    --Angels are ministering spirits sent to serve believers in Christ. That is one of their main purposes. Nowhere does it say they have the spirit of prophecy.
    What is your meaning? Give chapter and verse.
    Again, chapter and verse. What are you talking about, specifically? You sound very confused.
    You take scripture out of context. What Christian martyrs?
    Every Christian needs to overcome Satan.
    1. By the blood of the Lamb. Spurgeon says:

    2. By the word of their testimony.

    Would your testimony bring down a conviction in a jury of "guilty as charged" for being a Christian? Do they know you are a Christian. Does your testimony in and of itself tell others.

    3. They loved not their lives unto death. How far will you go in your love for Christ? Will you die for him, or are you just a couch potato Christian; one in name only?

    When a Muslim converts to Christ it is likely he will die. He knows the cost. Do we?

    What is your point here? Is not your testimony truthful as well?

    Satan, in this chapter is called the accuser of our brethren, and rightly so.
    He accuses us. Here it gives us a way that we may conquer Satan in the same way that those before us did. The Bible is a timeless book, a relevant book.
    The last days, the end times, the perilous times, etc. began from the Day of Pentecost onward.
    Again, one must keep in mind the prominent teaching of the Bible that the coming of Christ is always imminent. It was imminent in John's Day, Calvin's Day and our Day. He can come today or in a thousand years from now. To squeeze any amount of history into the Bible NOW, is to leave one open to the continual rewriting of the history of the Bible, or the events one is going to make relevant to the Bible.
    You are confused. I don't have the time to sort all this out, save to say the gift of prophesy along with the other spiritual gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12-14 have ceased.
    The Lord has given us His Word in place of those spiritual gifts.
  5. Protestant

    Protestant Active Member

    Jul 6, 2013
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    Part 3 – Witnesses for the Truth Against Antichrist

    The Book of Revelation, when analyzed of its core components, describes the life and death warfare, both physical and spiritual, between two professing Christian Churches.

    These two Churches are described as two cities: Babylon versus New Jerusalem.

    These two Churches are also described as two women: the Great Whore versus The Virgin Bride of Christ.

    One of these Churches faithfully follows Christ in spirit and truth.

    The other does not, following Christ’s enemy, Satan, instead.

    The faithful Church is the true Church of Christ who seek to save souls which are lost.

    The unfaithful Church is a satanic imposter, a false Church, the masterwork of Satan who seeks to destroy souls.

    The true Church is that which has the truthful testimony of Jesus, whose innocent members love not their lives unto the death.

    The false Church is that which has the lying testimony of Satan, whose sinful members steal, kill and destroy.

    The true Church is that which loves not the world nor the things in the world.

    The false Church is that which loves the world and the all the things in the world.

    The true Church is humble, seeking to save souls according to the Gospel of the free grace of God through the faithful preaching of repentance and faith in Christ alone.

    The false Church is prideful, seeking to destroy souls through a false Gospel of works, as well as mandating faith in the sacraments, the Church, the Virgin Mary, the saints, and her head, Antichrist.

    As Cain murdered the innocent Abel, and as the Jews murdered the innocent Christ, in like manner do the false Christians murder the innocent true Christians.

    The identity of Mystery Babylon and her Antichrist can only be solved by looking through the annals of Church history.

    It is there one will find century after century of life and death struggles in which the central issue is focused upon the question as to who is the true member of Christ and who is the member of Antichrist.

    Source: The classic Mennonite martyrology, Martyrs Mirror, originally published in 1660, pages 355-358.

    NEXT: Part 4 - Witnesses for the Truth Against Antichrist
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Jul 13, 2000
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    No it isn't. There are seven local churches in chapters two and three.
    Then the only church after that is the church of the anti-christ run by the false prophet. There is no other church between chapters 6 and 19. Bow down to the image of the anti-christ, accept his number or be killed. You have no other choice, no other church.
    At the time of the New Jerusalem Babylon will have already been destroyed. There will be no Babylon.
    They don't exist at the same time, at least not in the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation describes God's wrath being poured out against the wicked of this world.
    Chapter and verse please. The church has been raptured. There is no mention of any church between chapters six and 19. It is a picture of the wrath of God.
    Satan is there, and all who follow him in rebellion against God. Thus the wrath of God.
    There is no witness for souls in the Tribulation. Maybe some witness from some Jews.
    Really, do you call the Church of Satan, a church??
    That church does not exist during that seven year period of the Great Tribulation.
    There are many false churches throughout every age. Every NT writer warned of false teachers that would come. That has nothing to do with the "church of the Antichrist," a one-world church mentioned in the book of Revelation.
    There are many true churches throughout the ages, but nothing past chapter four of the book of Revelation.
    There are many churches today which love the world, but that has nothing to do with the Book of Revelation.
    This has nothing to do with the Book of Revelation.
    This is speculation. No one knows yet, what the nature of the church of the Antichrist will be like.
    There is no such thing as a false Christian. Either you are a Christian or you are not.
    Not so. There is more evidence and clues in current events then ancient church history. The book of Revelation is relevant for today.
    One will not find the Antichrist in history.
    If he is not alive today, he was not alive in the past, then he is still to come. Both present and future events will give us clues.
  7. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Sep 14, 2004
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    All of our ecclesiastical posturing still boils to one question: Where will we be in 100 years? Possible answers: heaven, hell, purgatory, none of the above. Will we believe God's Word or the commandments of men?

    How did the thief on the cross get to paradise the day he died?

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
  8. Protestant

    Protestant Active Member

    Jul 6, 2013
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    Part 4 – Witnesses for the Truth Against Antichrist

    For centuries Western European history was written by Roman Catholic historians, both secular and religious.

    The same holds true regarding the religious contests between the raging Roman Church hierarchy and her meek protesting Christian dissenters.

    Not surprisingly, the writings of their theological enemies were destroyed whenever possible.

    As a result only a relatively few rare manuscripts containing the doctrines of the alleged heretics have survived to this day.

    What has survived are the eyewitness and hearsay accounts of biased, prejudiced, and highly devoted Roman Catholics.

    It wasn’t until the Protestant Reformation began to gain momentum that the Church of Rome was forced to confront the question as to who held the legitimate position of the one, true, holy Christian Church founded by the Apostles and purchased by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Roman Church could provide historical proof of her continuous existence since apostolic times, something they were certain the Protestants would fail to do.

    In addition, she claimed Peter was the Rock upon whom the Christian Church was built.

    He was allegedly the first Pope, the Holy Father and Supreme Shepherd over all the faithful.

    The keys of his apostolic supremacy were then handed down to each successive Pope.

    So claimed the Church of Rome.

    The Reformers took issue and claimed otherwise.

    The Reformers declared the Church of Rome Mystery Babylon and her papal head, Antichrist, thus placing her in the unfortunate position as the very false Church prophesied in the Revelation doomed to damnation.

    Their conclusion was not drawn upon dreamy speculation, as are the wild prognostications of the deluded Futurists of our day.

    Rather, their conclusions were based upon both the factual, historic dealings of the Roman Church as well as her admitted religious doctrine.

    The Reformers judged Rome using Scriptural truth as their measuring rod.

    They discovered Rome taught a false Gospel which was anti-Christ, their life style and morals anti-Christ, their murdering of multitudes of professing Christians was anti-Christ.

    In short, there was no salvation in the Roman Catholic Church.

    But in order to prove the Reformed Churches were part of a succession of true Christian Churches from apostolic times, the Protestants began an exhaustive search through European libraries and monasteries gleaning pertinent information as to the destructive anti-Christian nature of the Roman beast.

    Included in their findings were the innumerable testimonies of trials condemning alleged heretical New Manichean sects who opposed the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings, life styles and morals.

    Like the Protestant Reformers, they, too, held the exact same opinions as to the true nature of the Roman beast, calling her the prophesied Mystery Babylon, her papal head, Antichrist.

    Furthermore, the Reformers were able to discern how, exactly the ‘heretics’ were falsely accused of being Manicheans.

    I have given a prime example in my treatise, ‘The spirit of Antichrist.’

    To deny transubstantiation was to deny Christ came in the flesh.

    To deny the sacrifice of the Mass was to deny and vilify Christ’s atonement.

    To deny image worship was to deny and vilify the reality and sainthood of the persons depicted.

    To deny worship of Mary and the saints was to vilify them.

    To deny the worship of the cross was to deny and vilify Christ’s atonement.

    To deny regenerative infant baptism to was deny baptism.

    And so on and so forth.

    Although the ‘heretics’ were given many names while being accused of similar heresies, they were, in truth, distilled down to two harmonious, Bible-believing Christian Churches: Albigensian and Waldensian.

    In concluding this part of my Treatise, I wish to leave the reader with the testimony of the Roman Catholic historian, Thuanus, concerning the hanging of alleged Manichean heretics in Goslar, Germany in A.D. 1052: