Hidden Ways, Never to be Spoken

You can feel anyway you want C.S. Murphy. Opinions aren't worth much because everyone has one. I challenge you to come up with some hard evidence, not simple baseless assumptions, to support your your assertions. Not because I'm baiting you and believe I'm the only one thats right, but that I welcome any credible information regarding the subject even if it contradicts what I hold to be true. Thats the difference between myself, a scientist, and your run of the mill opinionee - I want the truth. But "subjective truth" wont cut it. I contend that, regarding the issue of pornography, there are deeper issues that, if ignored, will only result in fruitless efforts on our part as Christians to combat the phenomenon. I am in no way defending pornography, and honestly, I don't see where you draw that assumption unless it is a weak rhetorical tactic designed to draw attention away from the fact that you don't have anything strong enough to come up against my arguement. If you are emotionally involved with the issue, which I believe that you probably aren't, but if so that could also lead you to similar conclusions.
Back in the 80's there was a government funded program called "Scared Straight". You might remember it. This program involved taking problem youths into prison and subjecting them to close contact with inmates that resulting in the subjects getting the hell scared out of the them. The expected result would be that less juevenile delinquints would end up in prison. Hypothetically it seems like a workable plan, right? Well the program was a monumental failure as most of the participants ended up in prison anyway. What went wrong? This situation, along with others, led to much research in the positive/negative reinforcement aspects of human psychology. All these years later we finally know that negative reinforcement is largely innefective in illiciting a desired behavior in human subjects. In not so many words, the government was conveying to the test subects that they expected them to fail and the test subjects were simply meeting those expectations.
The moral of the story? If you don't address the source of the problem, then your efforts will be fruitless in preventing its proliferation. Thats what I see happening with the issue of pornography. There are deeper problems within individuals who have let pornography control their lives that need to be dealt with rather than just compelling a person to turn their attention from the immediate manifestation of the sin. Do I think that pornography needs to be regulated and censored? Yes? But if the fundamental reason behind the behavior is not addressed, the deviancy is just going to manifest itself in another form with probably equally devastating results. If you have a life threatening injury you can take morphene to kill the pain, but uless you deal with the source of the affliction you will eventually bleed to death. Pornography proliferation is a front for a truckload of social problems that have accumulated over the yaers and that, sadly, the churches, by and large, have failed misserably in addressing or have ignored altogether.

[ October 18, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Xingyi Warrior ]

 

I do concede that you are correct, but please let me clarify my original position. Yes, pornography currently is forcing itself upon children as you state. This is wrong and the principal reason why it should be censored. But the reason it got to this point is that ADULTS bought ito it and continue to fund the proliferation of such smut. Adults are buying it because they mistakenly percieve that it is filling a need in their lives. Just a few days ago, I got an anonymous email that contained explicit porn photos. I saw them - they were all very attractive women. But I simply deleted them and that was that. I have a very secure and productive sexual relationship with my wife of 8 years and those photos dont affect me. I wasn't "instantly addicted" and quite honestly I could probably look at thousands more and I doubt I would be compelled or eager to seek more out. IN my younger years when I was single, however, I probably would have looked more. Sex is a lot more than looks, thats part of it, but its also about chemistry and cooperation. Studies have shown that while society holds the "Victoria's Secret" model to be the standard by which all are judged, men tend to be more sexually satisfied with less than perfect women. Not total slobs or anything, but averagely attractive women who maybe dont have the perfect hips etc... I'm secure in that aspect of my life. Someone who's not needs to deal with it or simple denial of pornography isn't going to solve their problems. Current research conludes that sex is a very powerful stress reliever and people who have healthy and productive sexual relationships tend to:
1. Be healthier and less susceptible to stress related ilnesses.
2. Twice as likely to exercise.
3. Three times as likely to eat healthier.
4. Less likely to suffer from insomnia.
5. Twice as likely to view themselves as attractive or have a positive self image.

And I will hypothesize and say that they are probably less likely to be susceptible to the draw of pornography. But that is an assumption and more research needs to be done before I can solidly stand on that claim. Sex is a need both emotionally and physiologically for many people and it is possible that people who do not have access to sex or whose sex life is not satisfactory for any number of reasons are attempting to seek out the what they percieve as the next best thing.

[ October 18, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Xingyi Warrior ]

 

***unkindness removed***I design CG (computer generated, just to insure that you don't read anything controversial into the letters CG) artwork for two or three companies on a contract basis. Most of my work is promotional and has to do with video games. I have NEVER designed anything pornographic, so don't even try to go down that road. As well I belong to several groups of online artists that share materials and 3d generated files on a regular basis. The email was from some guy by the first name of Josh (I'm not going to provide you with the entire address) and the subject matter of the email was as follows:

"Some new pics for you to try!"

I simply downloaded them into my documents folder and brought them into paint shop pro thinking that maybe one of my cohorts wanted an opinion, vote, or someone at the company was sending me something to touch up. It happens occasionally and I get tons of email every day so I didn't think anything of it. What came were two jpegs that were advertisements for a porn site. After deleting them, I simply clicked on the blocking controls on my web browser and sent Josh an email telling him that I'd wish he'd be more desriptive about what the photos were as they were labled 1206747EEX and 4590XXOOY respectively. I do not get solicitations from companies very often, but some of the places I contact(CG art forums, groups, etc) could possibly have neferious flip side websites that push porn its possible, I don't know if thats the case because I don't go looking for such stuff and they probably wouldn't admit to it anyway. But it could explain how they got my email. And there's hundreds of other ways as well. So in the end Olivebranch, no I did not knowingly open porn as the files were labled so vaguely and my virus scan or adware scanner didn't flip out(because lots of times those attatchments contain data mining software)so there was no indication otherwise. I view somethimes 20 - 30 CG graphics weekly as I am a Platinum member of two groups and vote on which pictures should be given honorable mention and placed on websites. This is maybe the 3rd time in 3 years that I have mistaken pictures of this type for something credible as often I download attatchments into my folder and look at them later. When you look at as many 3d creations as I do on a regular basis its just an occupational hazzardn an infrequent one I might add. Your blistering response to this, Olivebranch, would be as absurd as myself leveling the same accusation toward you if you misstyped a URL and inadvertantly ended up on a porn site. Did you intend to go there? Nope, but you've dropped your cookies and added to their hit counter which gives them positive feedback in the form of statistical info. Your fault? You decide, but the answer is pretty self evident.

You need glasses.

My original text as it appears

And just to clarify this for you in the time that I am referring to which can be readily estimated from the information that I gave as to the temporal aspects of my marital status (8 years) you could estimate that the peiod I am referring to probably falls into the range of 9 or so years back. And, I might add is the approximate anniversary of closure to a long period of struggling with sexual sin and temptation that my relationship to my wife (then fiancee) helped to end. So yes, further back pre engagement, marriage), I probably would have gawked a little.

Please READ the posts Oliovebranch before you make these pointless references. It wastes your time, mine, as well as the people who have to read through the clutter.

[ October 19, 2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

First off I do not believe that pornography creates addictions. This is, in part, due to the fact that there is no known research that I am aware of that identifies people suffering withdrawl symptoms when deprived of pornographic materials. Alchohaul, tobacco, and various drugs all have associated withdrawl effects that are well documented and thats why there are clinics for people who are suffering withdrawl. Is viewing pornography habit forming? Probably.


</font>[/QUOTE]****Murph *** Now notice above you state that there is no known research and that it is probably habit forming. Now let's look at your view about my post:

 

Honestly Murphy, your hypothetical foundation evades me. I never denounced your right to an opinion. Like I said everyone has one. You yours and I mine. When an opinion becomes an assertion is when you begin to claim that there is a factual basis for your beliefs. This must be supported by some form of empirical(numerical or quantitative)support or, philosophically speaking with respect to your beliefs, you are building your house on sand. First off I did not say that it was impossible that pornography is an addiction. In his sermon Ulsterman was making the claim (asserting) that it was based on unsubstantiated evidence. He was drawing conclusions from previous research that did not draw those conclusions. It was a stretch on his part to make those assertions in the first place. There has been mountains of research on pornography's affect on the human psyche and trust me if any credible evidence existed that suggested that such materials were indeed addictive by the American Medical Association's definition of addiction then you would have heard about it. That is probably because as I previously stated people who suffer from pornography fail to exhibit the physiological and psychosomatic symptoms associated with recognized addictions. The reason I took issue with Ulsterman was that he was not using the word addiction in a casual manner but ascribing the connotations associated with the official definition that fits the official classification as were you. When I said that it was probably habit forming I was not taking a stand as you so mistakenly feel. I was simply throwing out a hypothesis that, based upon the behavior of individuls who view pornographic materials and the previous evidence that was presented by Ulsterman in his sermon that it is much more likely that what he and you refer to as pornographic "addiction" fits the description (medical) of habit forming.
And as far as your allusion to "common sense"...I have to ask where? Please point out where you exhibited any common sense in your reply. Is common sense ascribing to an unsubstantiated belief because you feel that it should be correct? Or is common sense looking at credible research done in an area an formulating your opinions based upon that? You simply denounced my observations without offering any sort of refutation other than an attitude. Everyone has one of those as well to varying degrees Murphy.

I gave you the opportunity to refute anything I said but you came back with NOTHING other than falicious references to my sex life, which honestly I didn't go into detail about. If you've got something then lets have it Murphy! This subject does have to do with sex so I really don't understand your where you are going with that other than to draw attention to the fact that you are way in over your head on this topic. Maybe you "hicks" (as you so untactfully refer to yourself) should acquire some empirical research and quantitative analysis skills and do some original research to see if your assumptions hold water before you attempt to shake the foundations of those who have.

 

You're drowning Murphy. Give it up, or do you just desire to get the last word in? As for your discernment...the simple fact that you've contributed nothing worthwile to this thread leads me to believe that your relying on little more than "revelation knowledge". I've asked you several times to come forth with something to support your beliefs and each time you've dodged. And as for me not beleiving porn is a problem...I'm not going to reiterate what I've already said, you can read back through the threads. Yes, a problem, but not the root problem. If we don't address the issues of why the behavior is occuring we aren't going to stop it...we'll just keep complaining and it will get worse. As previously stated I find no credible data that leads me to believe that such behavior is an addiction. Personally, I think the whole "addiction" thing in this case sadly could represent a desire among Christians to shirk personal responsibility. But again I have no actual proof so I'll ask the jury to ignore that last statement.

My original text as it appears in the thread:

If you are emotionally involved with the issue, which I believe that you probably aren't , but if so that could also lead you to similar conclusions.

Nuff said......

Murphy I am not your enemy. I get shot down by my superiors all the time in arguements way more technical than this. Thats how I learn where my weak areas are. I enjoy cutting debate, but debate thats intelligent and intellectually stimulating. You and OliveBranch (whom I duly accept apologies) have done nothing but slander me and try to shift the focus of my posts from addressing valid, theretical arguements to squabling over trumped up fallacies of reason that are baseless to the original content. TWICE you two not only took what I said completely out of context, but you reprinted slanted versions with deliberate ommisions (see example above). Are you that lousy of debaters? I mean come on....if you aren't going to come forth with anything other than red herring, straw man, or ad-hominem attacks then concede defeat and cordially make your exit because your continuing distractions of offering an empty defense are just making you sound more inept with each utterance.

 

Xingi Warrior
I have to disagree with you when you stated that
"But in reality the situation stemmed from one of the partners not holding up their end of obligations concerning sexual matters."
I agree with you that this does create problems in a marriage, but for a person to use that as a reason for indulging in pornography/adultery is nothing more that an excuse.
"It's not my fault, it's the womans fault. I have a strong drive and she isn't holding up her end of the deal and I have to be satisfied."
That is the blame game and in the end who is going to be held accountable for our actions? Was it Eve's "fault" that Adam ate the fruit of the Tree? He knew better and God held him accountable and threw him out of the garden with Eve. Scientist or no scientist, layman or Pastor, this life we live is about obedience to God's will, not research and credible data.
There may not be data to back up the addiction claim as a medically supported ailment, but just take a look around you at the world and how it is degenerating into a morass of sin and depravity, we can see pronography as the powerful tool for supporting and promoting that degeration that it is. Yes, pornography is an ailment, but it is not one that will ever be supported by the AMA. This is an ailment that infects society as a whole. Since society suffers from "Truth Decay" it will not ever see this ailment for what it is. But, that is just my opinion.

In Christ

Ronnie

 

Welcome RTB and I'm glad someone finally wants to rationally debate this. First off, of the examples that I gave that you cited, these were not wam-bang the guys looking at porn and the marriage is over. The manifestation of pornography was but one step in a long degeneration process that led to the eventaul destruction. I do remain steadfast in my observation that sexual issues are a prominent factor in marriages that end in divorce. I have personally known 12 Christian couples over the years who's marriage ended in divorce and of those about 6 cited a husbands use of pornography as a contributing factor. All had difficulties in the area of sex. As you stated, society is suffering from what you call "truth decay" and I believe that this encompasses a broad range of social issues. With respect to marriage, unchallenged feminist thought has wrought a great destruction on our culture. Women feel more "liberated" and as a result are more likely to rebel against male figures-even their husbands, have less respect for them, and are encouraged to use sex deprivation as a form of punishment when they don't get their way. Also, modern pop culture has taken its toll as well by destroying the function of most traditional institutions of matchmaking such as family, friends, coworkers, community events, etc... Trust me, I have observed a relationship crisis in most churches for about 13 years. In many churches the singles groups fill with the flotsam of recent divorcees mingled with young, never-married adults, both of which basically stay there waiting for God to send that perfect person into their lives....and they wait, and wait...and wait... Christian online dating services have become pandemic and are currently enjoying more frequenting than secular sites. People need relationships and our society is currently in a relationship crisis and that crisis extends into the churches. Before I was really trying to live for God I was in a series of relationships where I was at times sexually active. Now of course I had to deal with the consequences of that sin, but it was difficult having once had sexual relationships to go "cold turkey", and as I said before it was a constant stumbling block that I was only able to overcome when I finally met the woman who would be my future wife. But that was not an immediate or easy process. I know many people who have been divorced who can identify with this as well as recent converts. Sex is not a life and death need but I can honestly say that I live better with than without it. And, supported by recent research into human sexuality, most people do providing its a healthy relationship. I believe its tougher than it ever has been for people to meet and develop relationships with others. Our society has become cold and inconsiderate. Where at one time it was common to know and fellowship with neighbors over 1-2 miles away, today people often don't even know the names of those living next door to them. And many churches, although should be setting the example to the contrary, often offer no significantly different options to members than can be found in a secular setting. For Christian singles it is worse as the pool of eligibles is narrowed. These two groups, unhappily married and the singles, as I cited earlier seem to be the most prolific users of available porn. I am not trying to excuse the actions or choices of those who have let pornography become a stumblingblock in their lives, but everyone has a breaking point and I believe that pornography instead of a "boogey man" could simply be an indicator of a culture racing toward social anarchy and oblivion due to more powerful and subversive influences.
Yes this life is about obidience to God's will, but discounting credible science is tantamount to foolishness. Not too long ago people suffering from Schizophrenia were herded into "deliverance seminars" by concerned Christians so they could have their "demons" cast out. Today, because of credible,systematic research 86% of people suffering from scizophrenia can be treated with medication and live a relatively normal life. The same can be said of epileptics. As well modern medicine, based on empirical research, has provided cures for diseases that, as recent as 40 years ago, could strike both Christian and non dead or cause them to be permanently disabled. The same empirical research is currently giving us greater insight into everything from economics to social issues. Science will be the fisrt to admit that it doesn't have the answers to everything, but that its only mounting continuous searches for the truth. But by ignoring truths gained from these methods or at least evaluating their worth we can only at best risk repeating mistakes that have hindered our progress in the past.

 

So I have a question.

Someone said that is the "wife" witholds sex in the marriage then the man will be more likely to go to pornography.
As if it is accepted. What about the women? Women, 9 times out of ten will NOT go to pornography because pictures are not stimulating to women. They just go and find a "real" as in NOT paper, to satisfy them.

So now, what is the excuse if a man turns to pornography even if his sexual appetite is being met at home? Is this a sign that even though the sex is as much as he desires but is not the quality he wants?

I know this thread is not a debate about this but it was brought up.

 

hi there....this thread sparks some interest on my end as my husband was cross-addicted to pornography.....main addiction was cocaine.....

I persoanlly believe pornography is an addiction.....but I also beleive anything behavoir we cannot stop could be classified as addiction. For instance, i feel my anger could be constituted as addiction. I need to learn new healthy patterns of dealing with it constructively, or when under the heat, i instantly go to what feels comfortable--expressing my anger in unhelathy ways. I beleive pornography to have both addictions of emotional roots, and also possibly physical. I belong to a website where the founder has done much deep study on pornography, and to my surprise a few years back she told me that there are some chemicals released when the addict knows hes going to 'look', or whatever. id have to contact her or look up the old post to get exacts on this 'chemical(s)'.....It is interesting to note that most porn addicts i know or have had a wife share with me about.......had molestation situations.......or introduced to porn young ......the problem did not begin when they got married. They had emotional problems long before the wife came into the picture.....thus giving them a false definition of intimacy......i beleive it to have emotional roots, whereas once the emotional problem of weighing true intimacy as God has designed--agaisnt false intimacy which was learned at a young age.....only then can true inner healing begin.......my husband has attested that his side addiction to porn was trying to get emotional needs met in a manner that God had NOT designed......thus the addict wants more, but gets less satisfaction every time. While i do beleive it can be even more harmful to the marriage relationship for a wife of an addict to withhold while he is unrepentant, this is difficult. Esp when the wife is feeling used and the true intimacy God intends for the sexual relationship is absent and even emotionally , mentally, and spiritually abusive. When a wife isnt meeting her husbands needs his first question should be 'how could i be fueling this"....not assuming she is adopting feminist doctrine and deleberately seeing how she can get back at him. From the wives i know, this was not the case. Rather, they were so hurt, down on themselves and their appearance (trying to compete with online goddesses) it depressed them to force themselves to do it...add in the fear of disease and other things......its such a diffic5ult situation. Repentnace on the hubbys behalf can make this easier........the wife usually finds (as i have!!!!) that she has enabled......or been angry......or a host of other things. It takes two to tango......but my own experience was not purposefully and willfully denying my husband. I could have claimed i was equally denied emotional needs,etc......

To the last poster.......on the site im a member of....there are many women who have porn-addicted hubbies who dont even want relations. Many get to the point where they can only function when acting out.

I hope i havent gone too in-depth here......Monica

 

Krausehouse/ Monica.... Since you are not Baptist, you are not allowed to post in Baptist only forums. Please note that for the next time you post.

Thanks!
Diane

 

To put this matter to rest.. the ? after the yes was a typo (typing error).

Hear ye, Hear ye! Xingyi Warrior now explicitly states that he is against pornography and thinks it should be censored.

Lets leave this moot point once and for all. I'm getting tired of this distraction of baseless sugesstion that I, in some way or another, support or endorse pornography. Leave it!

So why not remove it? You're the moderator and it would seem to be a much less overtly contentious solution than continuously firing rubber bands at me.

This is getting nauseating. The proof is in the text.


C.S. Murphy:

You may claim to be dumb Murphy but I honestly don't think you are. How can you read text that obviously states one thing and draw conlusions to the contrary? (I fall into that trap occasionally) and your cranking out text faster than you can think about what you just wrote. If not then you simply just grossly (and I mean grossly) misunderstood what I wrote. Either way case closed.

Man' I'm beginning to see spots. I was talking about my sex life. We are now discussing two different things that you are helplessly trying to build a bridge between with toothpicks. People who suffer the loss of a spouse or partner to death or divorce, breakup etc..often experience depression. And cold turkey is not a medically recognized term, addiction is. Nevertheless, I was using the example in relation to my personal relationships not soem fantasy conjured up in my head.

Oh Murphy, Murphy, Murphy..... After all this time and forum space you still continue to pick at my rhetorical nuances and their percieved "hidden meanings" without offering any fruitful debate on the subject matter being discussed. You've offered no alternate theories, or any other information that I could adrress in a professional manner and as a result all the discourse between yourself and myself has been "he said - she said" bickering over something I said that rubbed you the wrong way. If you want an example of some intelligent discourse just look at RTB's post above. And look at my response. I hope that RTB will reply to my second post addressing his as I would like to him/her to address some of the things in my second post so we could disscuss it further.

***Post edited to remove material that had already been removed and to avoid further rhetoric***

[ October 21, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

To the posters on this thread

After carefully thinking it over, at this point I really do not desire to discuss this issue any further. I thank all people who chose to adress the topic and repect many of their views.
Xingyi Warrior

[ October 21, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]