High and Low Churches

Well, let's hear you explain it?

 

Liturgies are prescribed rituals followed by churches that believe in sacraments, i.e. that rituals have some divine import. They are prescribed by something like the Book of Common Prayer. Roman Catholic, as well as Anglican, Orthodox, and some Methodist and Lutheran churches have liturgies, which are adapted from earlier roots in the Catholic church. Baptists don't.

I suspect all that is meant by "high/low church" in this instance is varying degrees of formality, in the sense in which "liturgy" can simply mean a prescribed way of doing anything, even of brushing one's teeth. If that looser sense is meant, then that is not truly liturgy, and not a "high church/low church" distinction. The whole "high church/low church" thing relates specifically to Anglicanism, and to how much Roman Catholic ritual is preserved in the Anglican mass. High church is very much like a Catholic mass, but without the pope! If this is what is meant, then Baptists out there somewhere are returning to Catholicism. Do Baptists hold mass? Exactly how similar to the Catholic church is a "high Baptist church"? Historically Baptists rejected Catholicism, and I trust that is still true.

Now a prospective Baptist convert could read this thread trying to find out more about Baptists and be VERY misled by things that have been said here.

 

From Wikipedia...

A liturgy comprises a prescribed ceremony, according to the traditions of a particular group or event. In religion, it may refer to, or include, an elaborate formal ritual (such as the Catholic Mass), or a daily activity such as the Muslim Salats (see Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, p.582-3).

I don't see anything about sacraments being a requirement or anything that refers to rituals having a "divine import". It seems to be more accurately and simply a traditional, prescribed way of doing something.

 

Well amity, I for one am glad that you have came along and corrected us.
Like I said earlier, I am not an expert in this subject...

It is just when Pastors and Area Ministers here in WV speak of High and Low Baptist churches, we are speaking of the situations I described.

It is based on formality...

Of course using the true definition of High and Low Church, there can be neither in a Baptist church...

But maybe, just maybe, there is a different way of describing Baptist churches evolving right before our eyes.

I still hold that our Maundy Thursday service complete with the liturgy of tenebrae was a high church element.

But I may be off in left field chasing daisies!

Thank you amity for keeping me straight.

 

Can you give me an example of a Baptist ritual? And how exactly it is done? May be we will agree on more than seems apparent.

But even under your definition you surely agree that the terms "high church" and "low church" do not apply.

Then I imagine they were innocently but inappropriately borrowing a term from Anglicanism when what they meant was "formality."

Yes, i think that is right.

I hope not in reference to Anglicanism. I mean it is fine for Anglicans, of course, but not for Baptists.

No, actually I think you are quite right! It evidently did come out of the Anglican tradition, and before that likely from the Catholic tradition, so in some sense high church, yes....

It has to do with LENT! Does it not?

Now if I next have to explain that Lent is not Baptist, I am going to absolutely give up!

 

Only offering grape juice for communion.
Wednesday night prayer meetings.
Altar calls.
Democratic society (congregationally ran)
Baptism by submersion.

These are a few, and don't apply to all Baptist churches either (except baptism, I'd hope), but as a whole are widely the norm for Baptists.

 

of that list, the only one I will grant as a "ritual" is baptism by submersion, and even there I think that is mightily different that lifting the host aloft with both hands while intoning the prescribed words from the prayer book. All we care about is that they get under the water. I suppose you might say that the words said at baptism "I baptize thee in the name of the Father ... etc." are a ritual, but if so, it is a divinely ordained ritual. If you use grape juice rather than wine during communion that is your choice, but hardly a ritual.
I think congregational church government is the antithesis of liturgy. I don't know what altar calls are, but are they a ceremony? Ditto Wednesday night prayer meetings.

 

Singing the Doxology after the offering
Responsive readings.
Reciting the Lord's prayer.
Singing a Call to Worship.
Specifics of the communion service ie, what I read, what the deacons do, how they sit down after serving the congregation, I serve them, and then the head deacon gets up and serves me...

All of these are a Baptist type of liturgy... an order... rituals that are performed.



And yes, our church used to observe lent.
They asked me last year if I did, and I told them no.

I am going to email my Area Minister and ask him these questions.
He may tell me I am absolutely crazy... he has in the past.

 

Altar calls are the end of our sermons in which we invite people to use the altar either for repentance, salvation, or just prayer.
Some drag them on....
I simply state that the altar is now open for prayer, and if anyone needs me to pray with them, come take me by the hand and I will be happy too.

This way, people don't automatically assume that the person going to the altar is a bad sinner in need of repentance, they may just be praying for someone else.

 

Doxology?
Offering?
Responsive readings?
Call to worship?
LENT?

I wish to withdraw my earlier comments. Yes, you are indeed very high church. Now it is the "Baptist" part I wish to look at closer, Tiny!
Maybe I am the one who should reconsider. Maybe those things really were a part of Baptist church historically? Somewhere? I don't know. Let me know if you find out more about the historical antecedents of these things. To me they seem just plain incompatible with "Baptist". They really come out of the Book of Common Prayer.

Now, I don't say that to condemn, Tiny. Some of my best friends are Anglicans and Catholics. Honestly. And there may be some hybridization back there that I don't know about. I really don't know as much about Baptist history as i would like to by a long shot. I am just amazed by this whole discussion. Total cognitive dissonance going on here. I had no earthly idea baptists ever observed lent!

 

I just want to repeat that I don't observe Lent.
But I do know some Baptists that give up caffeine, chocolate, Pepsi... or many other things for lent.

Baptist is a very loose term tied together only by the distinctives that have been spelled out elsewhere in these forums..

and here...
Baptist Distinctives is a name usually given to a list of doctrinal titles that have traditionally described what Baptists as a whole believe. The Baptist Distinctives usually include:

• Biblical Authority
• Autonomy of the Local Church
• Priesthood of All Believers
• Two Ordinances (Believer's Baptism and the Lord's Supper)
• Individual soul Liberty
• Saved Church Membership
• Two Officers (Pastor and Deacons)
• Separation (Separation of Church and State and Separation from Unbelief

 

To be honest amity, the doxology and responsive readings were done even in what I called earlier the low baptist church...
I have never been to a Baptist church that does not do these two...

 

I observe Lent...

Everytime I clean out my bellybutton, right before Easter each year.:smilewinkgrin:

That was gross, wasn't it?:laugh:

 

I clean out the lent trap every time I dry clothes.....

 

Tiny, honestly I don't think most of those things are truly baptist distinctives. Half or more of them we got the from the Anabaptists, anyway. And others like Church of Christ for example have gotten them from us.

As you probably realize, I go to a church that is very conscientious about not bringing in any observances or forms that are not explicitly ordained in the Bible. Tomorrow is what I realize most Baptists are going to call Easter. It probably will not even be mentioned in the church I will be going to. That is how far we are in the opposite direction from all of this. I and others like to think we (meaning Baptists) were "always as we are now." So I do think that there are some fundamental principles stemming from rejection of the Church of England hundreds of years ago that are at stake here.

So at least you know where I am coming from on this. In particular anything like formalism worries me personally a great deal, and even moreso if the form being adopted came from the Catholic church. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong whatsoever with giving up chocolate or soda water for 4 days, 40 days, or forever. If I were going to do that, it would probably be in October or February, to be absolutely certain I was not observing lent.

 

I understand where you are coming from...
But to give up chocolate in February... with Valentines day.... That would kill me!!! lol

I am willing to give up spinach though!

So if there is such a thing as High and Low Baptist, you would be low baptist....
That is OK by me...

I am interested in what distinctives I listed are not Baptist. These have been taught by thousands of Baptists to be the distinctives.

But let's not hijack this thread...
And I've got to get to bed, you are going to love this, our sunrise service is at 6:30 in the morning....

I read yesterday that God only made 2 types of people...
Those that say, "Good morning, Lord" and those that say, "Good Lord, it's morning"

I am the later.. I am a night owl!
But I had better get to bed anyway.

cya tomorrow.

 

Biblical Authority - Practically all protestants.
Autonomy of the Local Church - Puritan (Independent, church of Oliver Cromwell) and maybe anabaptist, too?
Priesthood of All Believers - Anabaptist and many others
Two Ordinances (Believer's Baptism and the Lord's Supper) Anabaptist, I think.
Individual soul Liberty - Anabaptist
Saved Church Membership - Anabaptist
Two Officers (Pastor and Deacons) - not sure about this one, but don't some baptists consider elder as a separate office from pastor, IOW three officers? So again not a baptist distinctive.
Separation of Church and State - Anabaptist, and not all baptists seem to believe this one either.

What is Separation from Unbelief? If it means what I think it means, then definitely Anabaptist.

Sleep tight, Tiny.

 

amity,

I don't think Tim is trying to say that Baptists are the only ones who believe some or all of those statements or that all Baptists believe them. In case you didn't know this, the first letter of each of those beliefs spells the word Baptists.

I would take issue with your statement that all protestants believe in Biblical Authority. I can tell you right now that this is simply not true.

Of course there are some independant churches that are not affiliated with any association/fellowship that are "Baptistic" in that they believe, basically the same thing that most Baptists believe but they themselves are not Baptist.

Having said all of this, I really don't know a whole lot about Anabaptist beliefs. Are they somehow decended from the followers of Jon Hus and are they related to the Morvarians in any way?

I'm new on this forum so don't take anything I say as an insult or think that I 'm a know it all.

Tom

 

If not all Baptist hold the so-called 'Baptist distinctives,' while many non-baptists do, what is the point of identifying them as such? They are not Baptist, and they are not distinct.

I did say "practically all." And who does not? It was one of the most central points of the Reformation.

hmmm, Anabaptists are a pretty diverse group which includes not only Baptists, but Amish, Hutterites, Mennonites, and various Brethren groups. Not sure about the Moravians. The name 'anabaptist' means 're-baptizer' because they/we would not recognize an infant baptism and insisted the convert be baptized again as an adult. The Anabaptist movement is also sometimes called "The Radical Reformation." In a sense the anabaptist movement pre-dates the Protestant Reformation and might not be properly considered protestant (plus the protestants picked on us horribly!). It is through the Anabaptists that (some) Baptists hold beliefs such as Landmarkism.

Here is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptists

At any rate, the historic Anabaptists were definitely our forebears.

 

Amity, Let's see if you can connect the dots...

Hussites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite

Jan Hus (John Hus) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hus

Moravians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravians_(religion)