Hip Hop

It is. It really is. And I am not even remotely close to be "traditional only". I spent about 5 years recently playing lead guitar in a contemporary praise and worship group. And we definetly "rocked" sometimes. It was tasteful rock, and we didnt dress like goons or lurch around like we were on drugs or anything. </font>[/QUOTE]And it's possible to perform rap without dressing like its worldly incarnation as well.

It just stuns me when I hear that. I've heard the "its just poetry" thing before, and it just boggles my mind to have this gang world inspired and thug promoted rap noise referred to as poetry.[.QUOTE] Once again, you confuse the modern secular use of it, with the form itself. The same things can be said about rock; just exchange sex, drugs, other forms of violence, punk lifestyle, etc, for "gang/thug".

"Spitting"? You're talking about human beat boxing. For one thing, that and mixing/scratching is not as prominent as 20 years ago. In fact, most rap today uses sampled music as the background. Still, those were just new forms of percussion.

No, it technically is not "music", but the art in it is about what the words say. Now, unfortunately, in the secular scene, it may be wasted on thug-related themes, and done in a way where you can't understand all the words, but once, again, this can be said to be much better than the discordant screaming, moaning, and blaring of hard rock.
(And early raps included more positive stuff like Kurtis Blow's "the Breaks", and the popular "the Message". The thug stuff didn't come until after a good ten years after that. But you, with a broad stroke lump it all together. You sound just like Aaron, now, even concluding with that
"Culture's moral downward spiral into depravity" comment.
This is precisely what drives Aaron's point he just repeated above, about "everybody draws lines". I'm surprised he didn' jump on what you said, or include you in his references.
On one hand, you say it is your taste, but you're basically laying out universal judgments on it. Precisely Aaron's point. You are applying his view on music to rap, but only modifying it to allow for the styles of rock you like. But if "spitting", scratching and "staccato yelling" are so "depraved", then once again, the same things can be said about the elements of rock, all the way down to the backbeat all of these dorms share. After all, it all comes from that same depraved subculture that produces so much crime and immorality anyway.
So what Aaron has been trying to prove is that you do know "the standards", but only bend them to what you like, [and you've just validated his point], but if you were consistent, you would be traditional only.

 

EricB,

Well, in my post I put in one "to my ears", one "in my opinion", and one "just my opinion".

Maybe I should have said it more, I dont know, but I thought 3 times was enough for a post that long.

The only part that wasnt "imo" was the part about what musicians generally think. And I'm sorry, but I'm just relating what I have seen to be the overwhelming opinion of rap noise in the bluegrass, contemporary secular rock, jazz, and christian praise amnd worship communities that I am familiar with.

It is considered to be the lowest of the low, and an insult to "real" music. Many times its viewed as comical.

Regarding those communities, please dont shoot the messenger. I'm just passing on the general consensus.

God bless,

Mike

 

Did you really think that a handful of "my opinion" qualifiers would override how many times you said "rap noise" (even repeating it yet again!). You can't even mention one without the other! That is not the name of the genre, it does not sound like a mere humble opionion, and it is a highly offensive remark to those who like it. But you feel so strongly about it, that I guess, later for other people's feelings. In fact: There's a strong "what's wrong with those people for liking it?" sense in your posts. That, plus the Aaronesque "depraved culture" statement certainly looks like a universal judgment. In fact, you're use of "noise" is even worse than Aaron, who I have not seen use that word nearly as much. And if you think I'm just being overly sensitive (IIRC, you insinuated something like that the last time); then just go and listen to people like Jeff Godwin and Terry Watkins, and the rest of the KJVO's say the same stuff about the rock styles you like. (And even they don't call it noise as much as you did. Once per page or less; not every single mention, like you.

As for the "general consensus of musicians", that's another shallow tactic of the CCM/rock critics. Not everyone thinks like that, (else it would never have been recognized by the Academy of recording arts; or whatever the Grammy institution is called, but then again; that's just the decay of culture, right? Just like the antiCCM: use stats when convenient; when not in your favor; the culture' bad), and it does not exhonerate one's own subjective negative feelings.

Once again; rap does not even pretend or try to stake its claim of worth on calling itself music (unlike hard rock). So only someone with a bias against it would see it as an "insult to music". It's a totally separate artform, even though we might call it "music", and it may borrow some musical elements. So all of that still does not warrant the such utter contempt being shown here.

[ March 24, 2006, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

Cross Movement is a group of guys that are really living for God and love God. They are very talented and could be making millions like: 50 Cent, Jay-Z, or many others but instead they are using their God given talent to praise and point people to Christ. T-Bone is another good example of a very talented Christian rapper that could be making millions but instead uses his talent for the Kingdom of God.

 

I have personally corresponded with Flame a solo artist from Cross Movement Records he is a Bible College student taking Theology and he is going to a Baptist Seminary. These are great guys I've been blessed to be able to meet them and know God is using and will continue using their music. We don't use Rap in church services but in Youth Center we will occasionally use Rap cd's.

 

Yeah, Cross Movement is very good. Destroys many of the stereotypes people have about rap, but many just have a selective vision.

 

D28,

Please refrain from making statements about the history of rap music, of which you have NO clue. You claimed that the first rappers did not rap about awareness, self improvement, or plain fun, but you are CLEARLY WRONG. You do not have to like or listen to it, but your bias is disgusting. BTW, the very first rap album was by the Sugar Hill Gang. It was called "Rappers Delight". Do you know what it was about? I do. Rapper's Delight was pretty much a just for fun rap, with nothing negative in it. "White Lines" was an ANTI-drug awareness rap. "The Message" was about how people live in the ghetto, i.e., the deplorable living conditions and such. (NOTE: it was not about being in a gang or committing crime). Look it up, and stop making up your own history.

You make these blanket statements about something, of which, in your dislike you know nothing about, and you sound ridiculous. Even today there are rappers who focus on awareness, self improvement, or just plain fun. Take the Roots and Common, for instance. These are just two of the many groups. Take a chill pill, and get off your high horse. Yes, rap is poetry, a version of storytelling. Like with everything literature, there is some good, some decent, and some that is just plain bad. It is certainly not worth all this debate.

This is coming from someone who does not listen to rap on a regular basis, but also has an open mind. Most importantly it does not come from someone who spouts utter nonsense as fact, when in fact, I nothing about the issue.

Everyone else,

God does not condemn, nor condone rap or hip hop. He is silent on the issue. Get over it and stop wasting everybody's time with these threads. Face facts, something is not true just because you keep repeating it. Are trying to convince us that God hates hip hop, rap, and all things CCM, or yourselves?

 

EricB,

I have a right to my opinion, Eric.

And "it" (rap) is a highly offensive type of noise to many when they hear it spoken of as being music.

I personally cant fathom how anyone can want that noise going in their ears. I guess that comes through in my posts.

I dont know who "Aaron" is.

But I think that when stuff like Rap, Grunge, Death Metal, Punk, Goth Metal, etc etc etc are actually considered to be respectable music by people I think that could very well be result of our society becoming more and more depraved.

Not just people enjoying exceedingly ugly music, but truly serious things like child extermination centers, pornagraphy, dead beat Dads, mothers murdering their children, inner cities becoming literal war zones, etc etc etc.

If you dont think societly is flushing itself down the proverbial commode you have'nt read a newspapaer or watched the 6 O'clock news lately.

I think that the enjoyment of putrid forms of music is natural offshoot of all of this.

I just cant bring myself to call it music. Its that repulsive to me. If my calling it noise bothers you this much please dont read my posts. It wont bother me at all if you dont.

I've heard them say that. I dont agree, but they are entitled to their opinion, as I am mine.

Again, thats what it is to me.

If I hear some of it that to me sounds like it qualifies as music, I'll call it music.

I'll tell you what, give me some names of Rap CD's that you think I will agree is good "music". I'll go to Amazon.com and listen to the 20 second samples that they have on there of all the songs. If I get a reasonable amount on musical enjoyment out of them, and I can say "thats music", then I'll come back on here and post that "You know, what I heard there wasnt too bad. I wouldnt buy it, but it aint that bad."

I'm not using stats. I'm talking of real people in real communities in which I am a part of.

I am biased against it! The sound of it is so hidious to my ears that I simply have to get away from it if it is going on within earshot.

And you are wrong. It is universally referred to as rap "MUSIC".

I cant stand it! I have contempt for it. If I cant stand it then I get to say that here.

I have not said one negative word against you or any other poster here on Baptist Board. I have not said that you all are inferior human beings for listening to it., only that I cant understand how anyone can want to hear it.

Listen...there are people who say the very same things about my favorite style of music, bluegrass. There are people who loath it, who consider a banjo being played to be a form of torture. They hate it.

And I say...fine. I dont try to heap all kinds of loathing back upon them for voicing their opinion.

God bless,

Mike

 

Filmproducer,

Regarding your post to me, see my post to Eric B.

Mike

 

D28,

Your entitled to your opinion. I was correcting your "history", and I thought I made that clear in the first sentence. Personally, I don't care what anybody likes to listen to. It doesn't affect me, nor do their opinions. I can't stand the majority of country music, or even southern gospel, but if people want to listen to it that's their perrogative. I just think it is pointless and ridiculous to condemn something just b/c we prefer something else. If you don't like something don't listen to it, just don't forbid others from listening to it if they choose to. (A general statement directed at everyone).

 

Filmproducer,

Just speaking for myself, I am not in favor of any attempt to forbid anything. And I'll say something that might surprise you, and probably Eric B.

I'm glad there are christian groups doing this rap stuff. Since some young people actually want to listen to rap, I'm glad there are christian groups getting the message of Christ out for them through that medium.

But the problem I have seen...from the times I have viewed a bit of it on TBN or some other christian network that has music shows, is that the message wasnt getting out.

You couldnt understand it!

The gross sounding back up noise was overriding the part that was the "rapping", and the kids seemed too busy with trying to lurch around looking like gang goons to be concerned with being understood.

Here is a question for you or Eric B.

Are there any rap groups who simply stand there and say what they are saying...in rap form...with modest rythmns?

Rather than all of this gross staccatto yelling and goonish theatrics?

If so, point me to some on-line videos and or music clips and I'll check them out...with an open mind...and post back with what I think of them.

God bless,

Mike

 

No, the Bible does not forbid or even mention types of music...But it does provide us with principles for living. My PERSONAL belief is if someone follows those principles (ie...II Corinthians 6:17, I Peter 1:16 - just to name a couple.) and continues to grow in the word and the light, that person will have no interest in things of the world or things that appear to be a part of or a duplicate of something in the world...ie hip hop or rap.

Don't start bustin' my chops I said this was my PERSONAL oppinion.

 

The issue is not whether it is [technically] "music". I said myself it was not. So that is not what is making you call it noise. Still, We have already gotten the sense of your opinion of it. When you keep forcing the word "noise", then it becomes offensive. Telling others not to read your posts is not necessary. All we have to do is respect others tastes more and not completely disrespect their preference under the premise of "free speech". Freedom is no excuse for disrespect, because all of those people in society you mention ("child extermination centers, pornagraphy, dead beat Dads, mothers murdering their children, inner cities becoming literal war zones, etc etc etc.") all often appeal to "freedom". And we certainly are offended and feel disrespected by that, right?

And that's what you don't understand. This whole "what's wrong with people who like it" sentiment, coupled with the link of it to societal "depravity", plus the frequent denunciation of "noise, noise, noise" DOES indirectly insinuate a negative statement against the listeners. Once again, "what's wrong with us"? This is an issue of learning how to voice ones opinion without being unnecessarily offensive. I had to learn this too, because on many of my pages, such as http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html touching upon these issues; when I first wrote them out, and tried to have some published; my wife pointed out they were a bit too angry and confrontational. A writers service said this ones "emotional frevore precluded objectivity". I think some of that is from the typical new-evanglical apathy to an issue as explosive as music in Church. Still, it was more confrontational (And I did tone them down a bit), but still nowhere near your style, as I never call anybody else's preference noise. There are other ways to get one's view across. And because people did it to bluegrass just means that they are wrongly disrepsectful as well. They are not who we should uas as a model for our behavior, especially as Christians. It is ridiculous to feel so strongly about trivial things like that. We're just giving ourselves ulcers. We are basically a nation of opinionated couch potatoes who seem to have nothing better to do than demand, demand, demand, and create idols of entertainment (and politics) and smash them, anyway, (and that is one of the forms of your "cultural decay" that I witness!)

Once again, we get your opinion on rap already. Still, you could have more respect; but the whole premise I gather here; that rap is SO BAD that it completely voids the rules of respectful disagreement, is itself another whole statement in itself; which I think goes way beyond any reasonability. If you think is is that bad; I would think it goes beyond a personal preference, and a bit more than a simple "I don't like it" is necessary to prove the point and support such strong feelings.

And you're not offended? If not, they good for you. Still, they are wrong, but their fervor against the music comes from their belief that it is contrary to some universal divine standard. And at least they try to produce proof-texts against something before calling it "putrid forms of music", though it doesn't hold when you examnine them.

"Music" in that sense simply means "audio track". And since it started off by rapping over disco records, that is another reason why it came to be called music. It became less musical as time went on, and it was just a beat and words. But afterwards, through digital sampling, music was added back to it.
Still, this does not justify insulting people's tastes.

By "stats", for lack of better word at the moment; I meant a claim of "consensus"; how many people supposedly agree with your point. Once again, that consensus is not universal, else it would never be recognized by the recording institutions. But when that is pointed out, you can just appeal to the "society is down the commode" rhetoric. The CCM critics do this all the time. Which is it? Does a large number of people believing something prove it is right, or does it just mean society is depraved? It always ends up taken which ever way is convenient to the person criticizing or pitching something.

Aaron, here, was at one point a moderator, even; the leading anti-CCM critic on the board. He was just posting to a couple of others on the last page about how we all have standards we believe are biblical, even though many justify listening to rock on the nasis that the Bible is silent on it. Haven't you debated him too? You're arguments are basically the same as his now, except that you accept rock, while he believes it is apart of the "societal decay" both of you talk about. If that is right, then maybe all of rock is wrong. It too sounded like "noise" when people first heard it. But once again, at least they try to prooftext their strong feelings.

Cross Movement, who we just mentioned, seemed to be a good example of that. I'm not sure of their website or where you can hear/see their stuff online, though.

[ March 25, 2006, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

EricB,

I said...

And you said..

OK.

I'll google them and see what I can find, and I'll check amazon.com for them and listen to the 20 secons samples.

I'll listen with an open mind and post back.

Mike

 

OK.

I just spent a few minutes at Amazon.com listening to the "samples" of the Cross Movement CD "Higher Definition".

Before I started I tried as best I could to clear out everything I have felt towards Rap and have an open mind when listening. In other words...

"Forget all the past experiences, Mike. A totally clean slate. Pretend like its something new that I've never heard of and am hearing for the 1st time right now"

Then I started with the 1st sample, expecting it to be much better, because of what you guys told me.

The 20 seconds felt like an hour. Then the next one. Then the next, etc. I made it through about 10 of the 15 samples and had to quit. It was simply intolerable.

For me there was nothing of any redeeming quality in it whatsoever.

Now, I'll take your guys word for it that they dont do the comical lurching around like goons. They just stand there. But the same problem exists as with the dopey stuff I saw on TV. I couldnt understand more than about 5% of what was being said. They could be speaking of sex with animals for all I knew, since I couldnt understand 99% of what they were saying.

Every once in a awhile..."there! I think I heard the word 'mercy'!...(a long time later)...yes! I think they just said 'He', probably means God...etc etc. But no normal statement of communication was ever discernable to my ears.

Musically, the sheer ugliness of the horrible sounding rythmn noises going on was unbearable for me. How are those noises being played? Who knows. Spliced together tracks, spitting noises, maybe a bass player who cant really play, etc. I just have no idea. But it was so ugly sounding.

Of course there was no melody going on whatsoever. It would be "heresy" for there to actually be "melody", I guess. Just the mindless drone of dopey staccato yelling and absolutly horrible sounding rythmn *whatever* it was.

I'm sorry guys. It was intolerable for me. Musically it was comically bad, and lyrically it was useless because I couldnt understand what in the world they were saying.

And for what its worth, I would be saying the same things if I were listening to christianised Punk rock, or Grunge rock, or Death metal, etc etc etc.

The only difference is that at least with those there is some melody going on, however bad it might be.

But rap is still beneath even those.

(there...I didnt say rap noise even once!)

I tried. You guys might not believe me, but I really did.

Mike

 

You're still judging it by the standard of technical "music". Some raps are more musical, and have more melody, but rap was designed as rhyming words, not as a new typoe of "music" (though it did get called that because it was an audio production that often used instrumental music tracks in the background).
It's a different art form. You cannot jusge it as "ugly" purely by comparing it with regular "music". It's two totally different scales. If someone got up and preached or gave a poem, you wouldn't judge it by its "musical" worth.

I have Cross Movement's first album, and yes, it is hard to follow the words. That is the ltest style, but originally, rap was not like that. (The style had to change so it wouldn't be the same thing). That still doesn't make it ugly, any more than a song in a different language is ugly. You either understand it (and many people have learned how to understand it), or you just listen to something else. No reason to bust a vein in repulsion over it, and then put it down.

 

NO! Not in the main adult service...

Possibly... But, with rather stringent caveats...

In a youth oriented service...

But, the very limited number of Church Service Scripturally based lyric sets makes me doubt there would be enough of the 'right stuff' to even have one song service...

There are other problems, too, though...

The genre relies on excessive Bass and I doubt many of the perveyors could even keep the lyrics going without the Bass...

Look, I like Militant Praise and I think bashing and stomping satan is a good thing for God's people to do as part of Praise...

But, I just cringe when I think of a service where Hip Hop takes center stage...

Again, don't get me wrong... I've heard Carmen do a rap that really spoke truth... But, I am not at all sure it is "Church Service" material...

Maybe as a single first song to shake the cobwebs and starch out?

I don't know...

It'd sure take a lot of the Holy Spirit to get me past my hesitation on this one...

Mike Sr.

 

Just speaking for myself, I am not in favor of any attempt to forbid anything. And I'll say something that might surprise you, and probably Eric B.

I'm glad there are christian groups doing this rap stuff. Since some young people actually want to listen to rap, I'm glad there are christian groups getting the message of Christ out for them through that medium.

But the problem I have seen...from the times I have viewed a bit of it on TBN or some other christian network that has music shows, is that the message wasnt getting out.

You couldnt understand it!

The gross sounding back up noise was overriding the part that was the "rapping", and the kids seemed too busy with trying to lurch around looking like gang goons to be concerned with being understood.
</font>[/QUOTE]Well, again, that is your opinion, and I respect it. I think the "gang goon" comment was offensive and out of line, but to each his own. Just remember there are many people who can, and do, understand what is being said in raps. There are also many people who cannot understand what is being "sung" in many rock/alternative/grunge type songs. It is really a matter of culture, if you ask me. I do not even listen to much rap, but it is much easier for me to understand it's lyrics than death metal, which, to me, is just obnoxious, incomprehensible screaming. In all, the message may not get out to you, but there is no reason to conclude that it does not get out to others. (not that you did make that conclusion)

 

Film,

In addition to what I said earlier...

I have heard some very good Christian Rap lines...

Unfortunately, they have been few and far between...

What is troubling, irregardless of the genre, is when a band purporting themselves to be Christian parades around like the world...

When a Girl band parades around with bare mid-riffs and deep vee tops doing dance moves that would make an adult actress blush... That's not right...

I am not against correography in a 'show'... But, keep the body parts modestly covered and the dance steps without the 'grind'...

As for Hip Hop... Some groups are dressing in the persona of the secular gangsta rappers...

And, I know I have used Pauls all things to all men argument many times...

But, Christian Music should show a clear delineation in dress and actions from their secular couterparts...

(No I don't mean suit and tie to do a rap in...)

The style (genre) may be the same... But, the attitude *MUST* be clearly different...

In secular hip hop and rap... there is an anger, a hatred for just about everything... A violence that does not belong in a Believer...

A Christian band may, IMHO, express that against satan...

But, then if the style doesn't lend itself to a 'friendly' rap... How is Jesus going to be lifted up if the style only lends itself to stomping satan (or something else).

Again, I don't believe its a genre thing...

I just don't think Christian Artists, by and large, understand the 'art form' well enough to separate the rap from the culture it comes from... Yet...

Again, I have heard some really good raps...

But, it ain't church service music... IMHO

Mike Sr.

 

In secular hip hop and rap... there is an anger, a hatred for just about everything... A violence that does not belong in a Believer...

Honestly, how much secular rap/R&B/Hip Hop do you listen to? It is clear from your comments that you are way off base. Now I am not saying that this music is right by far, but the MAJORITY of it does not deal with anger and hatred. Now if you are talking about sex, and partying, and clubs, then I couldn't say anything. I understand, and respect, that you do not like it, but at least argue against it truthfully.

As far as CCM artists, like female groups, dressing as secular hip hop artists, please give some examples. I usually don't go to concerts, as I don't have time, and I don't watch their music videos. BTW, how do "gangsta rappers" dress? Is it all that different from the way most in the Hip Hop/R&B/Rap industry dress? In fact, how different is it from the way many in "urban" culture dress? Personally, I fail to see how baggy pants and shirts is dishonoring to the Lord, but that is just me.

As far as "rap" culture is concerned it is very clear that you know NOTHING about it. If you were select rap/Hip Hop music at amazon.com a list of about 10 different styles would pop up. Rap is almost as diverse as rock.