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His determinate counsel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Oct 26, 2007.

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  1. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    You missed my what I was trying to say because I did not say it properly. I did not mean that the Knowledge of God came from somewhere OTHER than God. What I ment (to be much clearer) is that we do not know how God thinks and what constitutes the fulness of His thought. Thus my the qualifier of what I meant:
    in contrast to God only knowing a straight line of events that have no potential possiblities possible in the mind of God. It was my fault for the misunderstanding, and hope this clarifies it a little more.

    Please NOTE: I don't question that God is the sole source of all His knowledge, I dispute that we can know anything about how God thinks regarding His knowledge and how is specifically plays into Gods decrees other than knowing they are in conjunction one with the another.
     
    #41 Allan, Oct 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2007
  2. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Since this has turned into an occasion for an attack I will bow out. God Bless.
     
    #42 2 Timothy2:1-4, Oct 29, 2007
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    It's not an attack. It's a legitimate question. Why does there have to be a "no"? If God's enlightenment is always irresistible and always gets a "yes" response, what is that to you? Why is that unacceptable? Why would you say to God, "Back off with the enlightenment and make salvation less desirable until man is likely to say "no" some of the time, otherwise I won't be satisfied that we really had a choice."
     
    #43 npetreley, Oct 29, 2007
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    #44 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Nic was asking how to be saved. Why did not Jesus tell nic to say the sinners prayer and sign a card? Its pretty clear what He said.

    NIV
    8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

    NASB
    8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

    YOUNG
    8the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

    I could list more...they all say the same thing.

    ALLAN..
    Being you made such a bizarre statement, maybe I should show you I'm not alone.

    Gill
    Matt Henry
    Dr. Ray Pritchard
    Now you may not agree Allan, but I'm not alone in my views.

    James, this is the worst rendering of scripture I have seen from you
    hummm :)
     
    #45 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
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  6. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    This is a very accurate rendering regarding most non-Calvinists from MY experience. Excellent presentation Allan.
     
    #46 Alex Quackenbush, Oct 29, 2007
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    No need to say I'm sorry, but I'm sure you cannot show why I claimed you were Libertarian. I'm sure of it.
     
    #47 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
  8. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Jauthur, what's the problem with all this happening simultaneously? We can't know the mind of God. He tells us so Himself. So how are we to know that it must happen according to one veiw or the other?
     
    #48 menageriekeeper, Oct 29, 2007
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Amen. It's amazing that some can tell God how things are supposed to be done...
     
    #49 webdog, Oct 29, 2007
  10. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello menagerie,

    This is what I have noticed. If we keep it very simple, like making a list of order of events, the freewill sides falls apart. You will notice that non-Calvinist will not address this subject. They will change subject or make a wild spin on it.

    We do not know the mid of God, but we can understand this point, for the Bible addresses it.

    I have given verses to back my views, and the freewill side has none. None to the point. :)

    If it happens simultaneously, this would be just as Calvinist say. The decree happens...therefore He knows.

    But if it is based on God learning from man, it is not simultaneously.

    Does your God know all things? I trust you say yes. Then there is no need to learn my looking into the future is there?
     
    #50 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello Webbie,

    Its amazing that I see no verse from freewillers. I have backed my claims.

    Maybe you would like to help them out. :)
     
    #51 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
  12. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28)

    "But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth" (Deut. 8:18)

    "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven" (John 3:27)


    Notice this great verse...
    "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 5:21)

    Think about it for a while. :)
     
    #52 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
  13. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    posted two times...
    Please see below
     
    #53 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2007
  14. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Just how big is your God?


    You see God does make all things come about. Its not based on what man does, but it is because of what God has done.
     
    #54 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
  15. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    I'm sorry Jarthur, I thought we were discussing the order in which God does things not the fact that He does do His will.

    The only verses you have posted pertinant to this:

    are these:

    which quite leads me right back to what I posted earlier:

    and my personal position that it doesn't matter in what order God does things, if we do what we are supposed to do (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ), He will do what He said He would do. Some folk make things way more complicated than they need be.
     
    #55 menageriekeeper, Oct 29, 2007
  16. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    #56 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
  17. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    • The determinist view which is set against libertarian free will would consider free will an illusion.

    • Can an individual without volition can not be held morally responsible for his choices?

    • If God has determined all future and past events what alternative does the determinist have other than to account evil to God?

    • The determinists imply that an omnipotent divinity asserts its power over an individual’s will and choices and thereby must logically conclude that power being held accountable for the individual’s actions.

    • How can one be punished for involuntary actions?

    • Does God glory over forcing people to love Him?

    • I’ve been noticing a lot of determinism on this board lately, but rather think of this theological assertion as an attempt at turning God’s creatures into [​IMG]
     
    #57 Benjamin, Oct 29, 2007
  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    You have showed a poor understanding of Calvinism. Also, the robot...wow that is a new one. :BangHead:

    Why can non-Calvinist not see God in full control and man held responsible? To me this is so clear it will fall in your lap if you let it. But because you do not understand it, you side with man and his will, which takes us back to the garden for you cannot stand the robot idea.

    Some day, I want to play this robot idea all the way to the end. I have never done this before, but I feel even if it means we are robots, this is better then being left to our own wills in sin. We need to take this up someday.

    That said, it still carries no wait to say this is the only thing that will work. You exercise more control over your kids then you will allow God over mankind.

    As it turns out man does not need to be given such power, for it is God that clearly is in control of all things. However, this does not limit man to a robot. I know for one you have been shown this more then once.

    And still we have no verses. :)
     
    #58 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
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  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Thanks, but I think I will keep from telling God how to be God. Feel free to tell Him how His order needs to be. I'm glad you have it all figured out.
     
    #59 webdog, Oct 29, 2007
  20. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    In other words you have no verse. That is what I thought.....but that's cool

    Should I post more? :)
     
    #60 Jarthur001, Oct 29, 2007
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