1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

History of Dispensational Theology and Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Humblesmith, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    17
    It doesn't say a word in Hebrews 11 about Moses being justified.

    It says he did many things by faith. It's a chapter on faith. But the word justified, or saved or redeemed does not appear in that chapter at all.

    EDIT: To the person who told me to remove my avatar, please read my signature. I put it there for a reason. That avatar pretty much explains exactly what I believe about the Bible - as soon as I post, everyone will know where I am coming from (and can ignore me if they like :) ). I know Ruckman is not God.

    And he was only divorced twice. Married three times. Scofield was as well. Us dispensationalists have a bit of a record for that...
     
    #81 Lukasaurus, Sep 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2008
  2. JDale

    JDale Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Where does the Bible (Old Testament OR New) every say that faith + Keeping the Law (or anything else!) could EVER justify anyone? If this is true, Jesus died in vain. The Law was given to demonstrate that NO ONE could keep it -- not so that some could keep it and be justified.

    This is a common error propagated by hyper-Dispensationalists. It is not Biblical, nor is it the position of "normative" Dispensationalism.

    JDale

    Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. (Habakkuk 2:4)
     
  3. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    17
    It doesn't..

    I'll explain it again :)

    Old Testament saints

    In order to get to heaven, they had to take a detour on the way. Abraham's Bosom.

    The only way they could get to Abraham's Bosom was by faith, and keeping the law of God. If they broke the law, there were sacrifices that could be made which were part of the law, to forgive their sins. But they were not cleansed from sin.

    So a Jew who had faith in God, and by faith, kept the law, which they said they would do in Exodus 19 and Exodus 24, and offered up the sacrifices when he sinned, would die and go to Abraham's Bosom. He was not justified (Yes, Abraham was Justified by believing as Romans 4 says, but Abraham was not under the law - he was under promise, or grace).

    Then, Jesus Christ came to earth. God born as a man. Died on the cross for our sins, but not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). He now sheds His blood which washes away our sins and theirs (the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin).

    He descends into the lower parts of the earth, where Abraham's Bosom was (paradise), and sets captivity captive (sets the captives free - the OT saints were still captive because they were not sinless) - the sin debt has been paid, they are free to go to heaven. NOW are they justified.

    Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


    EDIT: Brother, you quoted habbakuk. I don't see how that verse supports your position.

    The just shall live by faith. Not saved by faith. And if it said the just are saved by faith, it wouldn't make any sense, because justified people are already saved.

    The just shall live by His faith. Yes, they shall. By the faith of God, they kept the law of God. If they broke it, they offered sacrifices. Habbakuk is also prophetic, and not about teaching Israel how to be redeemed, but rather, promises a future redemption.
     
    #83 Lukasaurus, Sep 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2008
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    The NT uses Abraham as an example of being justified by faith alone. Being justified is being saved. Both of these passages are clear that Abraham was saved by faith alone.


    All the dispensationalists that I know believe that the OT saints were saved by faith alone. I could not disagree with you more that the OT believers had to have faith plus do the sacrifices. Faith plus something else is not being saved.
     
  5. JDale

    JDale Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.(Romans 3:20)

    Luka:

    I don't have a problem with your description of Abraham's Bosom, Paradise, Jesus "descending" to take "captivity captive," and so forth. However, to say that those saints who were there entered on the basis of faith + works of the Law (or anything else!) simply denies the clear teaching of Scripture.

    Even Peter made this clear at the Jerusalem Council: Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Acts 15:10)

    No Jew -- No ONE -- has ever "kept the Law." The sacrifices were merely acts that evidenced faith -- they in themselves had no effacacious merit -- as you rightly pointed out. They could have offered such things as mere ritual, religious pretense. FAITH was what was necessary.

    Again:

    For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering.The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Psalm 51:16,17)

    And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams (I Samuel 15:22).

    The saints in Abraham's Bosom were there, awaiting Christ, because they looked forward in FAITH to God's salvation in Him.

    It is an error that Hyper-Dispensationalists too often propagate, that under the Old Covenant Jews were saved by "faith + keeping the Law." If that is the case, can Jews today be "saved" in the same way? Might they "keep the Law" and find redemption apart from Christ? Hyper-Dispensationalists sometimes fall into this same error, saying "Gentiles have their way to God [Jesus], Jews have their way to God [keeping the Law]? Is this not indeed at least a theoretical possibility in your view Luka?

    JDale





     
  6. JDale

    JDale Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Amen Marcia. Good post.

    JDale
     
  7. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    17
    But it doesn't mean anything..... I already said that Abraham was justified by faith alone. He was under the promises of God. When God makes the covenant and goes between the sacrifices which Abraham aligned, God does it himself. It's all of grace. Abraham wasn't under the law.

    My question was - where is Moses justified by faith?
     
    #87 Lukasaurus, Sep 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2008
  8. TC

    TC Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,244
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I see it along these lines.

    1 Corinthians 10:1-5 (KJV) says
    1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.



    So we see that Moses and the Israelites followed Christ. However, many did not believe and were overthrown. Moses is listed as one that has faith in Hebrews along with other OT saints, and Jesus said that if they (the pharisees and religious leaders) truly believed Moses then they would believe in him (Christ) because Moses wrote of him (Christ).


    Hebrews 11:24-26 (KJV)

    24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
    25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
    26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.



    It is apparent to me that Moses had faith in Christ and was justified by faith along with other OT saints.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    TC,

    Amen. All O.T. saints included Moses have faith in Christ, were saved same as N.T. saints have faith in Christ. All O.T. saints were saved by their faith only, not by keeping all laws. Bible always emphasis on faith all the times. "Laws" of O.T. is like as mirror showing us that we are sinners. BOth O.T. and N.T. saints put faith on Jesus Christ, both are on the same boat or on same tree-salvation. No other else. Only one salvation throuhgout O.T. and N.T. times by through the faith only.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    17
    3 Questions

    1) How could an OT saint trust in Jesus Christ?

    2) What did an OT saint know about heaven, and God's spiritual kingdom?

    3) After you answer the first two, why would an OT saint trust in someone he doesn't know, to go to a place he knows nothing about?
     
  11. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    A quick aside re Moses' faith as having saved him - read all of Heb. 11 and note verse 39 ("all these" includes Moses):

    The OT saints trusted in the true God. They knew of the coming Messiah and believed God's promise of Him. I am not sure what they knew of heaven, but they knew about a life after death. David, for example, when mourning his dead son he had with Bathsheba, said

    In Heb. 11, referring to OT saints, it says they desired a "heavenly" country:

    Here from Heb. 11 is a reference to Moses seemingly knowing about Christ:
    There is this with Jesus with the 2 disciples on the way to Emmaus:
    "The scriptures" here refers to the OT.

    Also note these:
    To answer your 3rd question - they trusted God, even though they did not understand everything or have the revelation we have. That is the whole point - they trusted God. This is what we are to do. We have more revelation than they did but yet often our faith is weaker (compared to the OT saints in Heb. 11). And we are still to trust Him when we have no idea what is going on. It's all faith!

     
  12. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, it's nice to see the thread still going after two and half years............but sad to see it hijacked.

    Going back to the OP, I think I posted in this thread three times primary quotes showing that Dispensationalists believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, for both Jew and Gentile. Dispensationalists believe in one salvation for Israel and Gentiles alike.

    I asked for anyone to provide primary quotes from any published Dispensationalist that has taught otherwise, and I have seen none. Not even one, after two and half years. The closest that anyone got was that it was "a logical conclusion" of the dispensational system. If I am generous, I can only conclude that this is a misunderstanding based on Dispensationalists' holding to an "election" for national Israel that still includes the land and a literal fullfullment of OT covenants. Again, Dispensationalists teach one salvation for all, and a destiny for national Israel that includes faith in Jesus and posession of the land.

    I showed this with numerous quotes from Lewis Sperry Chafer. Since this thread was started, another dispensational Systematic Theology was published by Norman Geisler that repeats the same thing: One salvation for both Jew and Gentile, and a physical inheritance of the land by national Israel.

    No one has shown me any published Dispensational quotes that show otherwise. Therefore, I conclude that those who continue to say that Dispensationalists hold to two salvations are not trying to find the truth about what dispensationalists' actually teach, for they obviously haven't been reading dispensationalists' teachings.

    I'm not disputing anyone's right to try to contradict dispensationalism from the scriptures. Go ahead and try, it's a free country. But please, for the sake of intellectual honesty, stop labeling dispensationalism with the acusation that it teaches two salvations, when no one can show me a quote from a dispensationalist that shows anything but one salvation for all.
     
    #92 Humblesmith, Sep 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2008
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Humblesmith, welcome back! :wavey: I was gone from the BB myself for about a year and a half and just came back recently.

    Sometimes it's hard being on the dispensational side of the fence here, enough to make me want to leave the BB sometimes. Of course, that then makes me want to stay. :laugh:

    Are you sticking around?
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Humblesmith: // I asked for anyone to provide primary quotes from any published Dispensationalist that has taught otherwise, and I have seen none. Not even one, after two and half years. The closest that anyone got was that it was "a logical conclusion" of the dispensational system. //

    Strange how people who are against something can logic otherwise. Salvation is the same in all 'dispensations'. "Jesus Saves" - true in all dispensations. And here is how I see Salvation:

    For the saved person:

    Past - Justification Salvation - all my sin was cleared out and GONE
    Past - Jesus does it, we participate in what Jesus does

    Present - Sanctification Salvation - my daily sins are cleared out and GONE
    Present - Jesus does it, we participate in what Jesus does

    Future - Glorification Salvation - Jesus gives me a brand new body,my sins are all GONE and stay GONE
    Future - Jesus does it, we participate in what Jesus does
     
  15. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    0
    Work has had me swamped, and I'm still taking classes at SES. With all that, I don't have much time for fun on the BB. I'll be around some, though.........unless I blow away with hurricane Ike tomorrow.
     
  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Uh-uh-uh! Not so fast DPt! The OT saints went to heaven when Christ arose -- that's true. That meant that they were JUSTIFIED by His sacrifice. But the church is SANCTIFIED by the new covenant HS! The OT saints WERE NOT ...... yet. Don't get ahead of yourself.

    The OT saints must be resurrected from death (as we have been) unto "newness of life," the MK. THEN and only THEN will they "join the church" so to speak! :laugh:

    skypair
     
  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    True! See my thread on "decisional JUSTIFICATION." That does NOT mean, however, that the OT saints are "church."

    skypair
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,385
    Likes Received:
    23
  19. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "Potter" is getting ready to put the "clay" into the "fire." But before He does so, He is going to "mold" them by hand when Gog comes sweeping down on the midtrib like a whirlwind. It is then that Joel tells us that their Pentecost will occur and many will be saved likely including many of those in Rev 7:9.

    skypair
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    That really debunks an interesting theory. Nobody here have I heard espousing that theory, but if one does come, we can zap them right off the board :godisgood:

    Ed's brief 'Dispensational teaching':
    ---------------------------------------------
    Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 family of editions (bold by Ed):

    1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
    For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
    but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
    is committed unto me.

    Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
    That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
    gather together in one all things in Christ, both
    which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
    If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
    which is given me to you-ward:

    Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
    Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
    of God
    which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is here. I do know the Greek word being translated here as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get 'economy'.

    I do know (IN SUMMARY OF THE BIBLE off the top of my head) that this is what the conomy of God is like:

    Bible Prophetic times:
    'hour' = the appropriate time
    'day' = the appropriate time
    or '1 day' = 1,000 years
    '½-week' = 3½-years
    '1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
    'month' = the appropriate time
    year = the appropriate time

    Other 'economy of God facts':

    the blind see
    the dead live
    the deaf hear
    the lame leap like deer
    the first is last
    the last is first
    Jesus Saves (totally!)
    God Rules!!

    Frequently the Bible discusses what is to be is discussed in either present tense (is done) or past tense (done already done).

    So a study of Greek tenses is generally frustrating. Us human type people can only do one day at a time. God can do everyday at a time - I think God may have invented all the days at the same time?
     
Loading...