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How Calvin helped create Unitarianism

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Nazaroo, Jun 24, 2011.

  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    The man was a noted heretic......that is what was done in those days. [personal attack deleted] The only person I can see here with any .....oh forget it. You will be one of those I ignore from here on. out.
     
    #21 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 26, 2011
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  2. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo New Member

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    How educated does a man have to be to know that
    betraying a man and participating in his torture and murder is a heinous crime? (Acts 1:25)

    Seems to me the Ten Commandments is more than enough.

    Herod had hundreds of innocent babies sacrificed to his megalomania.

    According to you, thats no problem, because -
    "..that is what was done in those days."

    Seems to me if torture and murder was an atrocity in Jesus' day,
    its an atrocity now.

    If Paul, the Apostles, and even the Jewish people were shocked and horrified
    by the news of Jesus' torture and death, (Acts 2:37!), then we should be now also.


    God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
     
    #22 Nazaroo, Jun 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2011
  3. BobinKy

    BobinKy New Member

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    Navaroo...

    Do you have a list of the Messiah prophecies removed in the OT of the NRSV? I do not want to argue anything. I just would like to see the list.


    Thanks.


    ...Bob
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Boy ...... shakes head.
     
  5. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo New Member

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    Sure: NRSV is not alone on the list, and it must be noted that the RSV and NRSV are closely related, and were both taken over by the apostate Metzger:

    Deuteronomy 23:17 CHANGE "sodomite" TO "shrine prostitute OR cult prostitute" ("There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.") This change also occurs in 1 Kings 14:24, 1 Kings 15:12, 1 Kings 22:46 and 2 Kings 23:7. NIV, NASB, RSV
    Deuteronomy 32:22 CHANGE"lowest hell" TO "realm of death (et. al)" ("For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.") NIV, NASV, NRSV, LB, NC

    Daniel 3:25 CHANGE "the Son of God" TO "a son of the gods" ("He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.") NIV, NASV, RSV, NRSV, LB, NC

    Daniel 7:10 REMOVE "judgment was set" NIV, NASV, NRSV, LB, NC

    Psalms 8:5 CHANGE "the angels" TO "the heavenly beings (et. al)" ("For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.") NIV, NASV, RSV, NRSV, LB, NC

    Micah 5:2 CHANGE "everlasting" TO "ancient times or ancient days (et. al.)" (""But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting.")
    Contradicts Psalm 90:2 "...from everlasting to everlasting thou art God..." NIV, RSV, NRSV, LB, NC

    Zechariah 12:10 CHANGE "his only son" TO "an only child" ("And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.") NIV, NASV, RSV, NRSV, LB, NC

    Psalms 9:17 REMOVE "turned into hell" ("The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.") NIV, NASV, RSV, NRSV, LB, NC

    Psalms 12:7
    CHANGE "thou shalt preserve them" TO "you will keep us safe and protect us"(et. al) ("Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.)
    NOTE: Changes the emphasis of what is preserved in verse 6: "The words of the LORD..."
    NIV, NASV, RSV, NRSV, LB, NC

    ------------------------------------

    However, some verses in the Old Testament are used in the New Testament as prophecy for Jesus being the Messiah.

    For example, in the KJV, Isaiah 7:14 is translated: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." However, in order to be more inclusive, the NRSV replaced the word "virgin" with the phrase "young woman." This causes a problem, as one of the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled in the New Testament was being born of a virgin.


    Another example is Matthew 2:2. In the KJV, the wise men came to the stable "to worship him," which is in accordance with the prophecy in Psalm 72:10, 15. However, the NRSV translation says the wise men would "pay homage" to the Christ, a connotation that is strikingly different than what was prophesied.
    D.J. Philips Review gives some more background and examples:
     
  6. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo New Member

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    L.M. Vance also has a long article on the issues with the NRSV (and ESV):

    Arthur Farstad (Majority Text) is also worthy of consultation:

     
  7. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo New Member

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    How to Destroy Messianic Prophecies - Three examples:
    is an instructive article on the issues and the shenanegans of various translations including the NRSV.

    The problems with the NRSV have also been discussed in the Preaching Forum here.

    Also in the Baptist Board archives:
    "The RSV suffers from a strong liberal bias that manifests itself in
    downplaying messianic prophecies in the OT and translating passages in the NT
    in a way that distances the NT from the theology of the councils and church fathers."
     
    #27 Nazaroo, Jun 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2011
  8. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Calvin also took the inititiative in creating the internet.

    He's also joined up with Klein. :thumbsup:
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    No matter how distasteful Sevetus underwent state execution. It was not murder. Calvin wasn't even a citizen of Geneva at that time.

    Johnathan Wright,who you are quoting a lot for your info is mistaken. He said: "It is likely that it was Calvin who informed his Catholic enemies that they had a covert Unitarian in their midst..."

    Then,with that speculation in-hand you take the ball and run with it by saying Calvin betrayed a man and particpated in his murder and torture.

    By the way,James White easily defeated this Wright character in debate back in April of 2006. Wright is wrong. He's a Dave Hunt type who believes that ignorance is a noble thing when it comes to the "simple gospel."
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yeah,why not be at liberty to defame and distort someone you distain based on other ill-informed and biased individuals who have an axe to grin? Just stay clear of Calvin's works. You can remain in the dark just like the Mediaevals.
     
    #30 Rippon, Jun 26, 2011
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  11. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Excellent point Rip, and nazaroo proves by his own words everything he says is biased.


    :thumbsup:
     
  12. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo New Member

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    Wrong. It was an execution. AND it was a murder.

    You don't burn people alive at the stake for not agreeing with you. (Luke 6:31)

    Any state that executes a man because he wrote a book contradicting the 'Trinity'
    is an insane police-state in the control of insane maniacs,
    and this cannot in any way be sluffed off as a "state execution" as if that excused it, or condoned it.

    If you condone an illegitimate 'state' burning a man alive,
    then you cannot be a Christian
    in any sense of the word,
    let alone a person with their head screwed on straight.



    Who's Johnathan Wright? Nobody.
    If I'm wrong in my 'speculation', which was shared by most of Europe, so what?
    I'm not an insane murderer who burns people alive.
    I'm just a person with a mistaken opinion.

    My worst sin then would be slandering a dead corpse.

    Your worst sin would be condoning insane torture
    and murder of people who have done nothing to deserve any such thing.

    Give us a link to the debate, and I'll be glad to discern for myself
    who was more honest and historically accurate, or a better logician.
    I couldn't care less who won the debate.
    Debating is not an honest skill.
    Rhetoric is for liars.

    Me too.

    I believe the gospel is for the poor, the ignorant, the disenfranchised, the marginalized, the lost, the abandoned, the unemployed, and repentent sinners,
    ...not for intelligencia, academics, rich people, rulers, or religious leaders. Those people are all going to hell.

    If we had to read and believe Calvin to be saved, not even Calvin would be saved.
    But I have someone more intelligent to read and believe: Jesus the Christ.
    Calvin who?


    If Wright is a simpleton, he has a lot better chance of salvation
    than someone who knowingly condones burning a man alive, and excusing it as a "state execution".

    Hitler and Stalin ordered state executions too.

    peace
    Nazaroo
     
    #32 Nazaroo, Jun 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2011
  13. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo New Member

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    Yes. Its called freedom of speech,
    to speak my beliefs and opinions,
    and let the free market of ideas reign.
    May the best statement win.

    That sure beats every other alternative,
    like censorship and kangaroo court trials that burn innocent people alive....


    How ironic.
    Someone who apparently thinks Calvin's works have value,
    is recommending avoiding them.
    That doesn't sound like love to me.

    But hey, I'll bet just as many Christians went to heaven
    BEFORE Calvin wrote his endless books, as after.
    So how important can Calvin be, if he's not in the Bible,
    and he wrote 1,600 years after Jesus spoke and taught?
    Was God out playing golf, and suddenly remembered,
    "Oh, I better get someone like Calvin to clear up My doctrine."

    [​IMG]
     
  14. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Calvin opposed Servetus being burned. The Geneva City Council overruled him.
     
  15. Nazaroo

    Nazaroo New Member

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    But he didn't oppose his death sentence.

    And his opposition was for show.
    He spent weeks trying to get Servetus to recant,
    so Calvin wouldn't be guilty of betraying him to torture and death.
    Calvin was as big a cowardly betrayer as Servetus was a clown.
     
  16. BobinKy

    BobinKy New Member

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    Navaroo...

    Thank you for the information you posted on the Messiah prophecies.


    ...Bob
     
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Unbelievable. I don't suppose that you want to qualify what you mean here do you?
     
    #37 quantumfaith, Jun 27, 2011
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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    He couldnt, if you read the historical records (which apparently you did NOT) you would know he had no voice because he wasn't a citizen of Geneva at the time so he couldn't oppose it.
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    How ironic.
    Someone who apparently thinks Calvin's works have value,
    is recommending avoiding them.
    That doesn't sound like love to me.


    Nothing like taking a guys words out of context!
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Indeed it was an execution --a state sponsored one.


    Mr.S. would have been executed anywhere in Europe at that period in history. All the other Reformers had the same opinion as Calvin on the matter,but some thought he was too soft.

    I don't condone what happened --I'm just trying to set you straight.

    It was not an illegitimate act. Michael S. was undermining authority anywhere he lived.

    As was stated before,Calvin did not want him burned. He wanted a beheading because it was more merciful. But he was out-numbered. He did not have the influence that you make out at that time. He didn't have more "power" until a few years later --nine years before he died.


    You have not established that.

    Since John Calvin was not in favor of burning M.S. he was not the insane one.

    Agreed.


    That is debatable. ;) It depends on the participants.


    Since absolutely nobody on the BB remotely believes that --why say such nonsense in the first place?
     
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