1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured How can a man “lose his soul”?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Pastor_Bob, May 16, 2019.

  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,823
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL You are the funny one aren't you. You are another one who some how see's things that are just not in my post. How can God remain sovereign and allow men to sin against His will?.
    MB
     
  2. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not at all. Not at all. Why do you think I put a question mark there? I wanted to be sure about what you believed. But you dodged the question.

    Do you deny God’s omnipotence?

    Well, that matters if you want my own opinion or what I believe the opinion of a Calvinist would be.

    A Calvinist I believe would equate Sovereignty with Omnipotence. However, I do not.

    So a Calvinist would say that God actually causes men to sin because that is his will. We cannot judge God.

    I would say sovereign as used in the Bible is a title meaning ruler.

    Exodus 34:23 NLT
    [23] Three times each year every man in Israel must appear before the Sovereign, the LORD, the God of Israel.

    A ruler doesn’t control all the actions of the ruled.

    But back to the question you dodged.

    Do you deny God’s omnipotence?
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    2,512
    Likes Received:
    154
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am not a Calvinist. Prove your assertion.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,403
    Likes Received:
    183
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Are you saying you don't believe in the reality of Hell, eternal punishment for the damned?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,403
    Likes Received:
    183
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This of course is the sad story of the rich young ruler who wanted for Jesus to be his Savior but whose master was money.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    2,512
    Likes Received:
    154
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe two things. The mortality of the soul in the second death (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28; James 5:20). And the eternal suffering of the lost (Mark 9:48; Revelation 14:10-11). I do not believe in annihlationism.
     
  7. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why should I? The multitude of Calvinists on this forum can correct me if they want. Gripe at MB. He was the one to ask me a Calvinist question.

    In the Words of John Calvin – Is God the Author of Sin?

    Seems pretty clear to me.
     
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,823
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No I do not deny God is all powerful and the word sovereignty. Well that isn't even found in scripture

    No
    What you personally believe personally would be sufficient.
    Sovereignty doesn't describe what and who God is. Especially with Calvinist. You see they often take the word beyond it's original meaning. In that they use it to restrict God to things that are not biblical. Such as limited atonement, and individual election. In fact the entire tulip. I do not believe any of it is biblical.

    I wouldn't even try to judge God. God does not sin, nor does He take part in tempting man to sin. or cause men to sin. Men do a good enough job of sinning them selves.

    The word Sovereign is not in scripture
    The problem with newer versions is they have added and taken away from scripture. A very grave sin The word sovereign is not in the original manuscripts
    Exo 34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel. KJV
    A ruler doesn’t control all the actions of the ruled.
    Exo 34:23 'Three times in a year do all thy males appear before the Lord Jehovah, God of Israel; The YLT

    No I do not. I believe that God is in control. However that does not mean He has not allowed man a choice of whether to believe in Him or not.
    By the way I do not dodge. I did not dodge I was in a hurry.
    MB
     
  9. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You chose this word - not me. It ludicrously silly to complain about a word you introduced in the conversation. I’m not particularly fond of the word but I answered with it because you introduced it in your question.

    As for translations, if you want to accuse a hundred bible scholars of a very grave sin, that’s on you. I’ll leave you to your unicorns and cockatrices.

    So, I assuming that you do not believe that God controls all of our actions. Is that true? That means that you do not believe in omnipotence the same way a classical theist does.

     
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,823
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just because God can control everything does not mean that He does. It means God can do what ever He pleases The burden of proof is on you Prove God does control everything. Our every word , all our sins, every thought. It seems what you believe is with out merit. I could care less about a video that some one else made videos do not prove anything. This argument is between me and you so prove your point,
    MB
     
  11. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,403
    Likes Received:
    183
    Faith:
    Baptist
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not believe that God is omnipotent. That is a Calvinist belief.

    I wanted to make sure that was clear. I do not believe that God is omnipotent.

    My question was more about whether you believed God was omnipotent. And you don’t believe in omnipotence at least not in the classical sense. You seem to have redefined omnipotence to mean something else. You believe that God can do whatever he pleases.

    What I was trying to point out is that this is not the omnipotence of classical theism.

    If God lends or gives up his power to allow anyone else to have the power to do something without him, including having a thought, then he is no longer omnipotent. He either has to allow the free action or not. By allowing power outside of himself, he is no longer omnipotent.
     
  13. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Rom 6:16 KJV - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    We are all servants. The question is, who is our master? Servants are not granted freewill. I consider myself a bond-servant of Jesus Christ.

    Here is one Greek word that was translated as "free" in the New Testament:

    Lexicon :: Strong's G1658 - eleutheros
    The KJV translates Strong's G1658 in the following manner: free (18x), free woman (3x), at liberty (1x), free man (1x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    1. freeborn
    2. in a civil sense, one who is not a slave
    3. of one who ceases to be a slave, freed, manumitted
    4. free, exempt, unrestrained, not bound by an obligation
    5. in an ethical sense: free from the yoke of the Mosaic Law

    #4 is the the definition I use to define the word free as in freewill/free will. No strings attached; no influence in making a decision and no consequence resulting from a decision. Therefore, I conclude, man has no freewill because his decisions are not made without outside influence and are not without consequence.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,789
    Likes Received:
    1,097
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wesley, do you believe that when an individual exercises saving faith that he does so freely or under compulsion? Keep in mind that I am a Monergist. I am not advocating Synergism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    2,512
    Likes Received:
    154
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, that is the true theist belief. Anything less is not God.
     
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,823
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Clicked the wrong button
     
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,823
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First of all I'm not one who changes definitions. This below is what websters dictionary says omnipoterce means;
    OMNIP'OTENCE,'OTENCY, n. [L. omnipotens; omnis, all, and potens, powerful.]

    I don't see it that way. I don't believe God lends His power out and He is still all powerful.He gives man an invitation to come to Him This does not lessen His power. Nothing can lessen His power. Being all powerful does not restrict God from allowing what He wishes to allow..Scripture says God is all powerful It does not say He is omnipotent. There is nothing impossible with God.

    We are predestined to be like Jesus how ever not everyone is. God is not willing that anyone perrishes.
    Calvinist will try to convert you to there way of thinking but you don't have to allow it.
    MB
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,823
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First you quote scripture that states clearly we are servants to whom we yeild that is freewill. Then you say " servants are not granted freewill. You really should make uo your mind because what you say and what scripture says is entirely different.
    This is interesting. How do you explain the word "yeild"
    MB
     
  19. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jhn 6:44 KJV - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    to draw, drag off
    metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

    impel
    [ im-pel ]
    verb (used with object), im·pelled, im·pel·ling.
    to drive or urge forward; press on; incite or constrain to action.
    to drive or cause to move onward; propel; impart motion to.

    Since God does the drawing to the point of dragging-off or impelling, I do not believe mortal man can overcome His efforts.

    Consider how Jesus dealt with Saul on the road to Damascus. Do you think Saul was remiss in not invoking his freewill
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,789
    Likes Received:
    1,097
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wesley, I asked you a simple question that can be answered with a "yes" or "no". I do not understand what that is so difficult.
     
Loading...