How Dare You....

Three thoughts:
1. The Sunday School comments have gone from silly to downright sad. Now we're taking these evil, pagan children and we're hurting God's feelings by teaching them about God. What a load.

2. Can we at least throw a "we're glad you're going to hell" party for the kids not blessed enough to live in a Christian home? Since it would be wrong for us to teach them about Jesus, can we at least acknowledge their eternal destiny with some cookies and kool-aid? I promise we won't sing any songs about God. That would be wrong.

3. Pews aren't scriptural.

Dontcha hate it when your logic works against you?

 

I'm afraid some have formed their theology thusly:

• A certain church languishes, and finds itself stagnant.
• Some folks form a theology that justifies and celebrates that church's lack of growth, outreach, and impact in the community...in effect becoming "proud that we don't grow." Said folks look highmindedly at other churches' efforts to make Christ known as "unbiblical," "ungodly," "misguided," and "wrong."
• Others embrace said theology but don't understand that it is ultimately a self-defeating, terminal outlook.

 

Neither is a church building.

 

Tiny, worship and church is a special category. If the Bible does not say whether one is allowed to own a refrigerator in ones private life, that means it is okay. If the Bible does not say to add auxilliary things into the church that Christ designed and furnished, than that means they are not okay. If Christ taught children as part of the congregation along with the adults, so should we. Much of Christianity now is focused on things that were added to the church later, distracting from things which are actually in scripture. Not just missions and Sunday schools, but Christmas and Easter, crosses and choirs and instruments and flags. Meanwhile people neglect to wash one another's feet and visit widows. When we add and subtract from the scriptural model, we are re-designing Christ's church to suit our own purposes. That is why we need to stick to the Bible.

Yes, this is the crux of the matter. We do not believe that souls will go to hell because of there not being a mission. Missionism is a very new invention in the scope of things. I don't see it as "designed" by God as you say.

Yes, there are. And historically there were even more. Missionism was imported from outside the baptist circle. It did not arise among Baptists as far as I know. Prior to late 1700s I don't think anyone had even thought of missions and Sunday schools (Sunday schools are after all missions to kids.)

 

Rbell, you can at least use their language... it's called, "the holy remnant"
"the Chosen"

It must be nice to know that you are chosen and all those pagan kids that sing, "Jesus loves me" are headed to hell..

That is just callous, and if that is what that type of theology teaches, I never want to be part of anything Primitive Baptists teach.

 

Jesus said,
Mark 16:15
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.




Baptists are new to the scene also, Go back past 1500, and you won't find any.

Amity, do you wear a robe to church, that was the scriptural model.
Do you follow the model Justin Martyr described in the 2nd century?
Do you meet in a church building or home church?
Home churches were the scriptural model.

PBs do not have the right to say they are the only ones that follow scriptures, when you set in your buildings, (non scriptural) in your pews, (non-scriptural) and praise God that you are not like the rest of Christendom. That is phariseeical, not Baptist.
Baptists are concerned about people going to Hell.
Baptists want to win souls.

Ooops, Christians want to win souls.

 

We make Christ known by preaching, n'est-ce pas? Just as God provided Stephen for the eunuch, and Peter for Cornelius, God's word will profit by His own hand. His word shall not return to Him void. Just preach the word. But in truth it is Christ who must make Himself known if there is to be true knowledge.

We are trying to describe what we believe and our reasons for beliefs as best we can, so please do not introduce hostility to the subject. And by the way I have never heard the term "the remnant" in church and have no idea what it means other than the ordinary meaning, like a remnant of cloth, something left over. I have heard "the chosen" only in the theological sense, meaning either the elect in general, or someone called to a specific purpose.

If you wish to avoid Primitive Baptist thinking on this, I would also rather avoid some of the heavy handed "evangelism" that that there is in the world, but it assaults me everywhere.

I think the reference was to training unbelieving children to sing "Jesus loves me." If they are not believers yet, why train them to parrot? Will that somehow get them saved? If so, we might as well go back to infant baptism.

 

Well, rbell, it's best to argue what you stand on with Scriptures, not emotions.

And, also, until a child is drawn of God to Himself, and quickened, and actually makes a profession of faith and evidence of such faith, do you want to call him Christian ?

It's as simple as that, but emotions can blur one's thinking, you know.

 

Can you call him a reprobate, per Titus 1?

 

I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I disagree. But even if it were true that would be no reason to bring sales techniques and mass marketing into the church.

I agree entirely. The robe comment is too silly to bother with. Other things that are fine in and of themselves, but not in church:

• Swimming pools.
• Chinese restaurants.
• Skeet shooting ranges.
• Godiva retail outlets.
• Ski lifts.

Do you get the idea that we should follow the scriptural pattern of what a church is supposed to be?

No, none of that is truly Baptist. And no one ever said we are the only ones following scripture on these points. Some Churches of Christ do a pretty thorough job of attempting to follow the scriptural pattern as well, even though their theology might be a little off. And there are many, many others, too, who attempt to embody scriptural principles in the way they worship. The regulatory principle of worship, which is basically what we are talking about here, is certainly not specific to baptists.

Tiny I have only got one thing to say to you:

"It is finished."

 

Then Christ told the disciples to go tell the world about Him.

Just because His work was finished, does not mean we can sit down and say ours is.
We still have work to be done.

When you leave out evangelism, you are not following Scripture.
Church is just not about worship and fellowship.
you have evangelism (missions), discipleship, and ministry to one another.

A church is off center when it ignores any of these.
If evangelism isn't for the church, why did God call evangelists?

 

Tiny, again, and I don't know how many times I have personally said this, the issue is not evangelism. The issue is missions specifically.

As far as evangelism, some of the really and truly heavy-handed and offensive hard-sell techniques some folks try to use ARE at issue IMHO. They alienate more people from Christ than you would believe. I know some people who said they won't go to an event at a church for fear of being proselytized. I am getting that way myself. I think my main problem with modern evangelism is the techniques that are sometimes used. If God shows the path, I DO talk to people about Christ. I don't pester people who are not interested. I don't pester people just to find out if they MIGHT be interested!

With missions, I am opposed to them as an auxilliary add-on to a church. Different issue. I sometimes toy with the idea of perhaps going to India to work on the issue of child prostitution there. I don't know if you class that as a mission or not. I wouldn't. My purpose would not be to save their souls, but their lives. The Lord already knows those who are His. And if I were to do this, it would not be as outreach for a church! It would be doing the job God gave ME to do, if that is what He is doing.

 

I tie evangelism in with missions...
That may be part of the problem here.


And yes, I see what you want to do as something that is considered missions. And would be a nobel thing to do. You would be doing it in the Love of Christ for those that are hurting. That is missions.
Jesus sent his disciples out to minister to the hurting, physical, and emotional.
Along the way, God may use you to bring some to Him.. (I know you feel that it is the Holy Spirit's job) but God may choose you to be a tool the Holy Spirit uses.

And what would be wrong in inviting your church to be a part of this God honoring mission? There may be some in your church that would want to help, but may not be able to physically go themselves...
That is what supporting missions is about.

Beyond that, what would be wrong with getting your church involved in the project. The more help you have, the more you can do. Doesn't that make sense?

BTW, I will agree that the salesman's approach to soul winning is ridiculous... I hate that as well. I believe that building relationships with people are a much better way to go. And that is also missions.

It has been said before, and it makes sense, "people don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care"

This is also the pattern Christ used, He would heal them, meet their needs, then share with them the gospel of the kingdom.

When you get to India, keep in mind what I am saying. Once they see how much you care, they will open up to you. You can then share with them about Jesus... to me this is missions and evangelism.

Of course, using your theology, you may find some that are already His that don't know it yet. All because you were faithful to your call.

 

yes, I take it on faith that God does not love Americans more than Indians! I am sure there are just as many Hindus in India as Christians in the U.S. who are loved by God.

To tell the truth, if I go through with this idea, and it is a big IF! then I would probably not even mention religion very often. When people asked I would answer. I think there is a much better witness to just live according to godly principles than it is to tell them they are going to hell if they don't "accept Christ" whatever that means. That is not the purpose of the gospel. I would be so grateful to God if He would bless my efforts just to have more of those poor kiddos on earth for longer. They are sold into prostitution sometimes at the age of 5 or younger, and they die of AIDS or whatever before they hit puberty, totally without medical care.

The Day My God Died

I would NEVER EVER ask my church for support for such a project, and it would be a total waste of time to do so, obviously. If someone individually wanted to help I would accept it. I think that would be the scriptural pattern. But it is not the purpose of a church to support such things.

 

I understand your beliefs, but like it or not, when you are in India, you will be a representative of your local church.

God placed you in your local church, and everywhere you go, you represent to the people of that church.

You may not recognize this, but it is true.

And why would you deprive the your fellow members the opportunity to be blessed by God by helping you help others...

That makes no sense to me.

If the problem in India existed in your back door, would your church try to help correct the problem, or would they just meet reguarly and ignore the problem...

If they would want to help here, then why not there?

I know your church would not go along with it anyway, but ours would jump at the chance to help a fellow member do God's will in their life.

That is what being a member of a local church is about, helping each others to help others...

 

ok "Jesus Loves Me" is the perfect song to teach to children, either saved or unsaved.....because it is true that Jesus loves everyone, and they will find it in the Bible........


alright, Amity, I agree entirely that a church is not there to support the effort you'd be making if you went to India. That is actually not what missions is at all.....

I get the idea that your idea of "missions" is more of a social outreach things, where its a bunch of workers sitting in their compound passing out medication or food, or building houses. While missionaries very well may do all these things, it is not what we are talking about here. A missionary (Baptist missionary, that is) is one who goes out in order to start a church, or to help in a group that will be starting a church.

Im not sure still what you mean by "missionism" except that you think its a bunch of Americans (there are missionaries from other countries, too) sitting in a compound doing nothing but waiting for poor natives to come and see them. This most definitely is not what we mean by missions either.










Good point TinyTim!

 

Except for Esau.

No, that is evangelism! And truly what I am thinking of doing I don't believe is missionary work. It would possibly become missionary work by your definition if I set up a church affiliated organization to support it and started hiring people to do it. "Missionism" is a belief that a function of a church is to sponsor auxilliary organizations to convert other people to Christianity. That is what I am opposed to.

 

I guarantee you i will never even mention my local church. Anyway, I hope I represent Christ, not a church body. Church body does not need representatation.

Then let them find what God put THEM here to do. It might not be the same thing at all. Like I said, if anyone were to feel moved to help something like that, I would try to put them in touch with an appropriate place to disburse their aid. I don't even know what is needed yet and am trying to find out. But I would be working with someone else, possibly with those Indian rescue groups, but definitely not with American missionary organizations! Is it ironic that I would rather work with pagans?

 

now I understand the problem, Amity. In my IFB world (and probably the ABC and SBC world) evangelism is a part of missions. Missions is starting churches and preaching the gospel.

However, the more I read your posts the more I realize that you really don't seem to think of Christianity as something which is God's answer to the world. I mean, you seem to be agreeing with the crowd that says that people come to God through many belief systems and who are any of us to tell them that they are wrong and the Bible is right.

Im not trying to sound snarky, just stating what Im getting from reading your posts.

If this is indeed your position than I can certainly see why your church is just a fellowship group and you'd see no reason to support gospel-bearing missions.