How dead is man that God's word cannot revive him?

If the word alone brings life, then everyone who hears it should be alive. Yet that is clearly not true. There is clearly something else involved. The Holy Spirit works through the word to bring life. You cannot separate these two. The word brings life because the Spirit brings understanding.

The effectual call is clearly taught in SCripture, in places like John 6, Rom 8, and 1 Cor 1. In these places, the "call" is what distinguishes between teh believer and the unbeliever. One has it, the other does not. That truth hasn't changed.

 

Why one is saved and another is not saved is a mystery of God. The Arminians and the Calvinists have devised clever systems to explain what God has not revealed.

 

Heb 4:2 ... the Word did not profit them because it was not mixed with faith.

Clearly, the "word alone" was not enough, and while I say that very carefully, it is a direct refutation of your point. The word brings life because of the work of the HOly Spirit. The two go hand in hand.

I don't assume men can't respond because they are dead. That is not an assumption. It is a plain statement of Scripture. The call mentioned in Rom 8 and 1 Cor 1 is clearly the difference betweeen the saved and the unsaved. That is undeniable from an honest reading fo the text.

But since we have been here before, and since the truth hasn't changed, and since I don't have any new way to say it, I am not going to pursue this. We simply have to get back to the authority of Scripture for our doctrine rather than the systems of man.

 

Exactly ... which refutes your whole point. You said that the word alone brings life. The Bible says that the word must be mixed with faith. Faith is man's response, but where does it come from? The Bible is clear on that too ... It comes from God.

The word is not the Spirit. The coming of the gospel and the word is the work of the Holy Spirit, but they are distinct. The Spirit is personal; the word is not. The Spirit gives understanding of the Word.

John 3 said it was pretty mysterious ... like the wind ... you don't know where it comes from or where it goes ...So the Bible refutes you yet again.

Which is what I have said from teh beginning, all the way back when you first started here.

Those verses do talk about man's response to God and teh gospel. Read them ... 1 Cor 1 says that the difference between teh believer and unbeliever is that the believer is "called," and therefore they accept Christ as his gospel. THat is the whole point of 1 Cor 1.

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Notice that to the JEws and Gentiles, Christ is foolish. To "the called" he is the power of God and the wisdom of God. That is, plainly put, man's response to the person of Christ, which is what salvation is all about. You cannot say that "man's response is not in these verses." It plainly is. When Rom 8 says natural "cannot submit," it is a statement about man's response. Again, you cannot honestly say that man's response is not in those verses.

I have no system. I have only the SCripture.

We have been through this many times. You didn't accept it last time. Why would you accept it this time? JOhn 6 teaches that; Rom 8 teaches that; Eph 2 teaches that; 1 Cor 1 teaches that ... and on and on and on ... When will you change your belief to line up with Scripture?

[ June 07, 2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

I don't know that it all that much of a mystery. The scripture tells us that those who are not saved are not saved because they were unwilling. (Matt. 23:37) </font>[/QUOTE]Through the Word, the Holy Spirit makes willing men out of unwilling men. Yes, men stubbornly resist and are lost of their own fault. Yet, no man is saved because he put up less resistance than another man or else we would be saved by merit not grace. This is illogical to man and remains a mystery.

 

Of course it doesn't make sense in your paradigm. BUt agian, get back to what Scripture actually says. It says that the word without faith does not save. There must be somethign else. The same word says that man cannot understand the things of God without spiritual illumination. How can he believe what he does not understand? What doesn't make sense is the lengths to which you will go to get aroudn this ...

No, and yes. Man is responsible for his disobedience and failure to believe.

Yes I do. Read it. John 3 is talking about being born of the Spirit which is what regeneration is.

[qutoe]The word is spirit and its like a wind that comes and goes through God's people to all places throughout the world.[/quote]That is not what the text is about. You are misuing John 3. REad the context and use it as Christ said it.

The calling is not unknown and unrevealed. It is very clear. What we don't know is how exactly the calling works. The word brings faith as the HOly Spirit opens the mind.

No it can't be applied to the general call. If you think that, you haven't read it closely. 1 Cor 1 is very clear that the difference between the saved and unsaved is "the call." EVeryone who has "the call" accepts Christ as the power of God and the wisdom of God.

YOu notice that I haven't done that here. While that is a proper thing to do, that is not the topic here.

If that is what Paul intended, then why isn't that what Paul said? He said nothing of the kind. You have added to Scripture to support your own doctrine.

Totally unconnected with this discussion. "Call" does not always mean the same thing.

That is true.

I didn't read it that way anyway. What he clearly says is that the difference between thsoe who accept and those who don't is the call. You have to add to Scripture to get your position.

No, all other SCripture does not refer to that. There are many other passages that refer to "the call" with the sense of an effectual call limited to the elect. My presumption is that the text means what it says. I don't have to change to support my doctrine.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it. Until you get it right, you will be saying it wrong. Romans 8 is about man's response to God. He cannot respond. The gospel of grace is a command to which man cannot respond. Again, you are failing to understand the passage. Put aside your conceptions and see what it says.

 

Here is my personal experience:

Before I was born again, I did not care about the Word, nor was I concerned with religoun; indeed, religoun and politics were of no interest to me. Sure, I could freely choose to believe in the Word, but what good is this free will when you have no interest in excercising it. I was dead in sin and trespasses, care nothing for Christ or any religoun, for that matter. But when the Father drew me to the Son, and I became regenerated, I then was able to 'exercise" my faith. I studied psychology for a decade, and it shows that there are so MANY factors that determine a mans thoughts and choices. Determinism, behaviorism, post-traumatic stress disorder, etc. These can all effect how a man responds to God's Word. Harldly seems fair if I'm psychotic or mentally retarded. Faith must come after regeneration. Man can hardly be trusted over such an important matter.

 

One last thing.
Some people believe Christ's Atonement makes men SAVEABLE and others believe it makes them SAVED.
In other words, "do-able" as opposed to DONE.

We all talk SO much about man's free will.
What ever happened to God's free will?

 

Before I was saved, I was a drug addict, a raging alcoholic, loved porno, and not only was indifferent to the Bible, but LAUGHED heartily at it. Years in Catholic schools further hardened my "response" to the Word. Indeed, God could have sent ten thousand apostles into the world, not only leaving us with God's communication, but a CONTINUING communication...it would not have mattered to me. Why? Because I was DEAD.
Suddently, many years later, far removed from any church or any hearing of the Word, I suddently felt drawn to Christ, not even understanding why. Suddently, I was filled from head to toe with a deep, irresitiable belief in the Bible. Yes I said, IRRESITABLE, because I could NOT resist this conviction, and it was not for any lack of trying. Yet The Father drew me to Christ, and THEN I believed. Why me? Why did this hard core drunk who detested ALL religoun, poked fun at the Bible and lacked all reverence for it...why, suddently, am I experiencing the presence of Christ, not resisting Him, believeing even AGAINST my own will...why? Because HE will it.
This is why I cannot accept the Arminian posisition on Total Depravity. God was not letting down a rope ladder from heaven, pleading for me to climb up, because God would not drop down a ladder to a CORPSE.

 

AMEN Brother Calvin.

For the praise of the Glory of HIS Grace.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

Yes, the Seed grew in my heart.
But why not others? Why do others have a stony heart, others have good soil, others have the seed taken away by the birds of the air, or choked by the weeds?
Why does God "have mercy upon who He shall have mercy, and harden whom He wills?" (Romans) Why does Psalm 33 say God fashions hearts individually? Is that just another "poetical" statement? In another post, you seem to give John 6 a very forced interpretation, saying, if I am correct, that we are no longer drawn to Christ as those were who lived in His day, yet in the same passage He says He will raise them up on the last day. Who? Only those who were drawn to Him while He was on earth. I don't think so.
What about God hardening Pharaoh, hating Esau before he has ever lived. Prov.21:1 says very plainly, not peotically, that the king's heart is the hand of the Lord, and like rivers of water, He turns it WHEREVER HE pleases. Free will?

Please explain:
""Therefore He has mercy on whom He has mercy, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it it, "Why have you made me like this?'" (Romans 9:18-20)

If God can harden the Jews to save the Gentiles, where is the free will of the Jews? Throughout the entire Bible, God is seen sending confusion, deep sleep, hardening hearts, opening eyes for understanding...I guess I still don't get it.