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Featured How did God “constitute” mankind after the fall?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Mar 4, 2021.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Scripture does not say God "constituted" humankind, but Romans 5:19 says God made humankind "sinners." To be made a sinner, while having not done anything good or evil (Romans 9:11) must mean to be made with the consequence of sin, corruption so they are predisposed to sin, and separation from God, conceived in the realm of darkness.

    Calvinism makes God the author of sin, because God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. But in the next sentence, Calvinism says God is not the author of sin. So OTOH, God predestines every sin, yet does not predestine every sin.

    Behold the cognitive dissonance of Calvinism.
    1) If a person is unable to seek God, are they sinning when not seeking God?
    2) If a person is punished for not seeking God, are they punished because God made them unable to seek God?
    3) Thus the "T" of the Tulip is unbiblical, because it removed human responsibility for sin.

    Who would embrace this irrational and unbiblical twaddle?
     
    #21 Van, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    We're not claiming anything that prominent Calvinists don't claim. We're literally repeating their words.

     
    #22 George Antonios, Mar 5, 2021
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t seen you accurately repeat any position that Calvinists hold.

    Will you address the OP? How was mankind “constituted” after the fall and what was the basis for God’s choice in determining the consequences?

    peace to you
     
    #23 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    A distinction without a difference.

    If God “predisposed” mankind to sin as a consequence of the fall (and everyone sinned and is separated from God), what was the basis for God determining the consequences of the fall?

    peace to you
     
    #24 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  5. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Did you listen to the video?

    And why are you asking me? It's your position as a Calvinist, not mine.

    Do not Calvinists believe that as a result of Adam's sin mankind was rendered unable to even confess its depravity and unable even to simply believe the gospel?

    And who is it that set those consequences of the fall if not God? Was it not God that ordained the thorns and thistles, and the pain of childbearing? And is it not God that so constituted mankind after the fall as to be unable to even believe?
    Is it not God that predestinates and foreordains every little last element?
     
    #25 George Antonios, Mar 5, 2021
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I understand my position, I’m asking for yours.

    How did God “constitute” mankind after the fall and what was the basis for doing so?

    peace to you
     
    #26 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sin causes a separation from our Holy God. To be made sinners refers to our condition at conception.
    Mark 7:21 illustrates the corruption of our soul/spirit.
    In short the basis for God causing the consequence of the Fall is His Holiness and Justice.

    1) Scripture does not say God "constituted" humankind, but Romans 5:19 says God made humankind "sinners." To be made a sinner, while having not done anything good or evil (Romans 9:11) must mean to be made with the consequence of sin, corruption so they are predisposed to sin, and separation from God, conceived in the realm of darkness.

    Calvinism makes God the author of sin, because God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. But in the next sentence, Calvinism says God is not the author of sin. So OTOH, God predestines every sin, yet does not predestine every sin.

    Behold the cognitive dissonance of Calvinism.
    1) If a person is unable to seek God, are they sinning when not seeking God?
    2) If a person is punished for not seeking God, are they punished because God made them unable to seek God?
    3) Thus the "T" of the Tulip is unbiblical, because it removed human responsibility for sin.

    Who would embrace this irrational and unbiblical twaddle?
     
    #27 Van, Mar 5, 2021
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I think we're talking past each other here.
    Our point is that in that in the Calvinist system God is unjust, unlike in the non-Cal system. Here's why:
    men don't ultimately go to hell for the sins they do - they ultimately go to hell for rejecting the cure which is Christ.
    So, yes, even in the non-Cal system, men inherit a fallen sinful nature with a propensity to sin, but that doesn't guarantee their damnation since they remain free to simply believe on Christ.
    However, in the Calvinist system, they inherit something (inability to see their condition and believe the gospel) which guarantees their damnation.
     
    #28 George Antonios, Mar 5, 2021
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You say people “ultimately go to hell” for rejecting Jesus Christ and that can “always believe on Christ”.

    What about those that never heard the gospel, or the name Jesus?

    peace to you
     
    #29 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    On that, we agree.

    On your interpretation of what Calvinists believe, you are wrong.

    peace to you
     
    #30 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Altogether different topic that.
     
    #31 George Antonios, Mar 5, 2021
  12. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    @canadyjd Do you believe that God hardens all non-elect people?
     
    #32 George Antonios, Mar 5, 2021
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    It’s still relevant to this discussion.

    You have agreed God has “constituted” mankind with a sin nature as a result of the fall that condemns them without Christ.

    You state your position is different from the Calvinists because mankind still has the ability to respond to the gospel with “free will” while the Calvinists say they are unable unless God intervenes to make them able.

    The Calvinists will say everyone God has chosen will hear the gospel and be saved.

    You say mankind will go to hell for rejecting Jesus, not for sin.

    So, what happens to those who never hear the gospel or the name of Jesus? They never get the chance to accept or reject: they still have a sin nature as a result of God “constituting” them with a sin nature and are separated from God:

    Will they go to hell?

    peace to you
     
    #33 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    No, it’s not necessary since elect and non-elect are equally unable to respond to the gospel without God intervention.

    peace to you
     
    #34 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  15. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    So who is it that God hardens?
     
    #35 George Antonios, Mar 5, 2021
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Scripture gives the example of pharaoh, and says God hardens whom He will harden and have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

    In that context, the “hardening” is not to prevent Pharaoh from salvation (which appears to me the point you are trying to make) but to accomplish God’s will in bringing the Hebrew people out of slavery with mighty miracles.

    Scripture also speaks of the Jewish people (generally not totally) being blinded to the truth of the gospel so that by their rejection the gospel would go to the Gentiles until the fullness comes and the “veil” is lifted.

    Again, the emphasis is on God accomplishing His will.

    I do not believe anyone is seeking God without intervention of God Holy Spirit so I reject the idea that Calvinism teaches God “hardens” people (non-elect) to keep them from accepting Christ.

    Now, I have answered your question directly, will you answer mine?

    What happens to those folks that never hear the gospel or the name of Jesus if people only go to hell for rejecting the gospel?

    peace to you
     
    #36 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    That's precisely the non-Calvinist take and many, many Calvinists would disagree with you about Pharaoh.

    You already asked that in another thread and I already answered it:

    what about those who never heard.png
     
    #37 George Antonios, Mar 5, 2021
  18. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    So God doesn't harden anyone against the gospel?
    Or God hardens only most Jews against the gospel?
    Could you please clarify those points?
     
    #38 George Antonios, Mar 5, 2021
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I’m glad we agree about the “hardening” of Pharaoh. I don’t know what all “Calvinists” believe, but I would be surprised if “many, many” believe God hardens the heart of the non-elect that are desiring salvation to keep them out.

    I did ask you in another thread about those who never heard. If I remember, your answer was vague.

    Would you please tell me again and elaborate somewhat more directly, particularly how it relates to how God has “constituted” mankind after the fall?

    peace to you
     
    #39 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Sure, I said God doesn’t harden the non-elect that are desiring salvation to keep them from being saved because no one seeks God for salvation unless God intervenes in their lives. All elect will be saved, whether Jew or Gentile.

    As far as the Jews and the “blindness” to the gospel, again this is to fulfill God’s plan that the gospel goes to the Gentiles, not that God is keeping any particular person from salvation. All elect will be saved, whether Jew or Gentile, and no one seeks God for salvation unless Holy Spirit intervenes in their lives.

    It’s not just that the gospel, Christ and Him crucified, was rejected. The gospel is rejected so violently and throughly by Israel that it goes to the Gentiles.

    There were many schools of thought in first century Judaism, but all were debated from the standpoint they were part of the Jewish faith.

    The violent rejection of a “crucified Messiah” eventually displaced Christianity from being accepted as part of Judaism, both by Jewish leaders and by the Roman government.

    And so, the purpose of God sending the gospel to the Gentiles was accomplished.

    peace to you
     
    #40 canadyjd, Mar 5, 2021
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