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Featured How did the Apostle Paul get it so wrong?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jan 15, 2015.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Of course I do. I think your teaching if defective.I cannot agree with it, although as you explain yourself I see why you believe as you do.
    This is not the teaching. You must be accurate if you are going to get it.A person must count the cost from day one, but no one expects a new convert is going to understand everything instantly.

     
    #41 Iconoclast, Jan 17, 2015
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  2. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    Good stuff.

    [​IMG]
     
    #42 RLBosley, Jan 17, 2015
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Quote:
    this is the heart of your problem DHK....romans 8 speaks of two kinds of persons....carnal unsaved persons.....spiritual saved persons...

    You and others whose error you follow try and invent a 3rd kind of person who does not exist in reality,

    This is not my problem. If you can't understand the Scriptures then whose problem is it? The believer ALWAYS has a choice: to obey or disobey. That doesn't mean there are 3 types of people. Where do you get that from. I never suggested that, so it is a random false inference--something you shouldn't do.
    You can obey or not obey. That is what is at stake here.
    Often when a believer disobeys it is out of his own fleshly desires--his own carnality.
    Let's take a good practical example. How many Christians do you know that are obese? How did they get there? Don't tell me "hormonal problems," because that is less than 2% of the population. It is because they indulge in the sin of gluttony. They are not temperate. They don't take care of their body. They give into their fleshly appetites. They are carnal--overweight, and God hates it (James 4:4).
    The same holds true with adultery--to look upon a woman and lust after her on one's heart. It is the desire of the flesh; carnality--something that God hates.
    The Bible says that covetousness is idolatry.
    Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
    --There are many Christian idolaters in this world.
    --You can obey or disobey. Many disobey, wanting those things that God doesn't want them to have, committing adultery, and gluttony, adding to the sins of the flesh--pure carnality.

    Quote:
    it seems that way to you in your narrow limited fundy box, trying to squeeze me and others into your view of separation....so perhaps you stand a chance of sounding as if you offer an answer , or solution. You do not however.

    Name-calling is also carnality. It is of the flesh. It is not of God. Did the Holy Spirit guide you to write the above words?

    Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    --Were you under the flesh (carnal minded), or under the Spirit (Spiritually-minded) when you wrote those things?

    Quote:
    This is not descriptive of a Christian. You deny the indwelling and active work of the Spirit in sanctification by your very words.

    you try to slip this one by;

    I said:
    "If disobeyed, the life lived is a life of carnality, a life according to the dictates and desires of the flesh."
    Yes, it is very descriptive of a Christian who is not in submission to the Holy Spirit. Are you always in submission to the Holy Spirit? yes or no?

    Quote:
    let's not go right down to vs 5...lets look at the text which you say I cannot deal with...lol...lets deal with it right now.....

    Like I previously said (and you apparently don't accept) I wanted to deal with specific context and avoid using up space that would force me to post on more than one page, as this might make me do. It makes the post too long.

    Quote:
    let's see who deals with the text, and who inserts clown like ideas...

    Another "Spirit-led" post, Icon? Really?

    Quote:
    Romans 8:1-9 quoted

    Quote:
    There are two kinds of people described here....not 3.

    A false inference. I never said there were 3.

    Quote:
    the saved;[I will show you just from the text as it has escaped you all your life evidently... although it does not stop you from bullying SBM, or saying I cannot deal with the text]

    1. I never bullied her; I answered her continual copy and paste jobs, and repetitive posts that never addressed the actual points made.
    2. Nothing has escaped me. You force your pre-conceived ideas into many texts, so you also should be paying attention.

    Quote:
    1]There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus

    2]who walk not according to the flesh,

    3]but according to the Spirit;

    Paul describes Christians who walk....NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.....you say they do

    Paul says they walk according to the Spirit....This is all real Chrisitans
    no condemnation, they are In Christ, do not walk according to the flesh,
    they do walk according to the Spirit.

    These are the general qualities of a Christian. It is no guarantee that a Christian is perfect. Paul is not saying that Christians are perfect, and never walk in the flesh. He doesn't say that.

    Quote:
    vs. 2: two laws are described; not 3

    for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus
    did set me free from
    the law of the sin and of the death;
    Christians are set free from the law of sin and death....there is another law working in them...paul describes it as the law of the Spirit of lifeIn Christ Jesus.

    This whole passage is directed to Christians. It is carried on from chapter 7 where Paul describes his struggle between his two natures. When the believer gives in to that sinful nature it will result in sin and death. Sin always does.
    But he need not do that.
    The Spirit of life has set him free from that (providing his is submitting to that Spirit of life). Are you always submitting to the Spirit of life, Icon? Or do you say things you regret saying which is NOT submitting to the Spirit of life?

    Quote:
    I do not see a third law like you try and insert by wanting to just "jump down to vs 5"....

    There is no third law. I was trying to save space, and the pain of going through most of the chapter just for you. The chapter is addressed to Christians, is speaking of Christians--whether they are going to give into their flesh (sinful nature) or yield themselves to the Spirit of God, that Spirit that now dwells within them.

    Quote:
    now vs 3; 3 for what the law was not able to do,
    in that it was weak through the flesh, THE FIRST ADAM FAILED AS A LAW BREAKER

    God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh,
    and for sin,
    did condemn the sin in the flesh, THE LAST ADAM WAS A LAW KEEPER

    He always did the will of the Father, the perfect law keeper;
    21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

    No, the law condemned. The law showed us our sinfulness. We cannot be saved through the Law. Therefore Christ fulfilled the Law that we might be saved.
    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    Quote:
    now vs4: 4 that the righteousness of the law may be "fulfilled in us,
    who do not walk according to the flesh,
    but according to the Spirit.

    two men contrasted......not 3 men...only two DHK...can you see it yet?, do you still want to just "skip" down to vs 5???? sure you do...so you can go on about your falsehood of the carnal christian[:

    False accusation again. I never once said there are three men.
    There is only ONE man--one man with a CHOICE: and that is to yield to his flesh or carnal desires, or to yield to the Spirit. Which do you do?
    "To walk according to the flesh" or to walk "according to the Spirit."
     
    #43 Iconoclast, Jan 17, 2015
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No sir, the error is yours. You correctly say there are only two different persons being described, but your view of one of these persons is wrong. There is no third person because the saved person in this context has both the indwelling Spirit, as well as, the indwelling law of sin in their physical body. Therefore, no third person is needed, only proper understanding of one of the two possible kinds of people is needed. It is your understanding of one of these two that is flawed.

    You cannot possibly deny that your physical body has the principle/law of corruption/sin working in it. Neither can you possibly deny that in Romans 7 the term "flesh" is referring to the PHYSICAL BODY wherein this law of sin/corruption indwells and is at work.

    You cannot possibly deny that Christ said that one must "die DAILY" and so there is no such thing as a once and for all death to sin in regard to the LIFE of the believer. Just as Paul says "I die DAILY".

    Our "spirit" is the object of new birth NOT OUR BODY and therefore once for all death to sin has occurred in our "spirit" as our spirit has been renewed in the image of God or CREATED in "righteousness and true holinesss" but OUR BODY has not been renewed.

    Our POSITION in regard to sin has been completed ONCE AND FOR ALL or our justification before God but sin is still at work in and through our HUMAN BODY and the law of indwelling sin/corruption wars against our soul by the "appetites of the flesh."

    Hence, Romans 8:7 refers to the mind as controlled by the law of sin/corruption which both those "in the Spirit" and those "in the flesh" are subject to but with this caveat - those "in the flesh" have no other indwelling principle working in them so with them it is impossible to please God. However, those "in the Spirit" do have another resource or indwelling Law and Power at work in them to counter the indwelling law/principle of sin/corruption which is only overcome by PUTTING ON the New man and PUTTING OFF the old man which is a DAILY necessity. Putting on the new man is being filled with the Spirit or coming under the dominion, direction, control of the Spirit and that is not a ONCE FOR ALL event but a DAILY event. This is the essence of PROGRESSIVE sanctification.
     
    #44 The Biblicist, Jan 17, 2015
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  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #45 DHK, Jan 17, 2015
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    post 43 I cut and paste part of an old post but I was going to work through I have to do that when I stop later on I ran out of time when I took a dinner break
    the part of his post that you agree with is the part where he is wrong so I will address that when I stop later also


    the old man has been crucified already and Ephesians chapter 4t it speaks of having put off the old man already done not do something you do every day put it on you put it off

    I thought Biblicist only had one error but now I see that he has 3
     
    #46 Iconoclast, Jan 17, 2015
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Romans 8:7 does not teach that a believer has a mind controlled by the flesh, it is speaking of the unsaved. A Christian is a new creation not a natural man who also has the indwelling Spirit.



    This is false teaching left over from the higher life movement. Eph speaks of having already put on, and put off....it is not a daily activity.

    What is daily is the mortification of sin

    romans 6 says sins power to reign is broken;
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness


    Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

    6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof
     
    #47 Iconoclast, Jan 18, 2015
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  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are confusing the STATE of the inward new man (regenerated spirit of man) with the STATE of the WHOLE person (unregenerated soul and body). You are correct that the INWARD state of the spirit is a new creation but you are wrong that the WHOLE man is a new creation. The WHOLE Man has not been born again or "created in righteousness and true holiness" but only the "spirit" of man has been born again - Jn. 3:6.

    Romans 8:7 refers to the "MINDSET" or that aspect of what the Bible describes to be the "soul" of man or his INTELLECT, WILL and EMOTIONS when it embraces "sin....in your mortal body". The soul has not been regenerated and that is why a saved person is commanded to set their AFFECTIONS on things above and to THINK on these things and to CHOOSE what is right. Hence, the soul has not been created in righteousness and true holiness but still can THINK WRONGLY, SET AFFECTIONS ON WRONG THINGS and CHOOSE WRONGLY. Romans 8:7 is speaking about coming under the indwelling law/principle of sin/corruption IN THE MIND which a saved person CAN do and which is the STATE of a lost person's WHOLE person.

    Iconoclast, do you believe you can think wrongly? Do you believe you can set your affections on the wrong things? Do you believe you can choose wrongly? That is your soul, but the regenerated spirit CANNOT sin, it is a new creation fixed in a absolute sinless state or created in "righteousness and TRUE holiness."


    False! The aorist tense put on and put off denies it is a progressive action but is something that can be done instantaneous. To "put on the new man" is to be "filled" with the Spirit and "filled" is also an aorist tense action. Jesus said one must die "daily" to sin, and that is silly unless sin is still active in some part of your person. Paul said "I die daily" which is silly unless sin is still active in some part of Paul's person. It is not a once for all act at regeneration as you claim. You are confusing the CONDITION of the regenerate nature with the CONDITION of the whole man. Your soul and body has not been born again, but only your "spirit" (Jn. 3:6) The law of sin indwells YOUR BODY and will until glorification and your MIND can put on the law of sin in your thinking,affections and will and if you think not it is because you are deceived.

    What is born again is without sin as it is created in a state of "righteousness and TRUE holiness" and "TRUE holiness" is without sin, as holiness with sin is not "TRUE holiness." Hence, where does sin have its foothold in you??????? Not in your new created spirit. You cannot mortify sin in your body as only God can do that in glorification and not until. You mortify sin IN YOUR MIND (Rom. 8:7) AFFECTIONS and WILL.

    You do not understand what you are quoting and it is easy to prove.

    1. What Paul is describing in verses 1-9 is that aspect of your human nature where "death hath no more dominion" but that is not true of your WHOLE PERSON as death does have dominion over your PHYSICAL BODY and the grave yard is proof that it does. Verse 12 proves my point "sin....in your mortal body." A child of God can "let...sin...reign" or choose to "let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body." That choice to let or not let is the action of the soul (MIND, AFFECTIONS and WILL) and to choose to let it reign even for an instant is the "MINDSET" of the flesh in Romans 8:7. Indwelling law/principle of sin/corruption REIGNS in your "mortal body" and your body will not be "delivered" from the reign/dominion of sin until glorification.

    2. Verses 1-9 is speaking of your REGENERATED aspect of your person which is your "spirit" as only your spirit has been born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:6) and your legal position in Christ. Your body is under the dominion of sin and your soul can CHOOSE TO BE UNDER ITS DOMINION by THINKING upon the things of the flesh, by placing your AFFECTIONS on the "appetites of the flesh" and CHOOSING the things of the flesh because the principle of indwelling sin/corruption ABIDES IN THE FLESHLY BODY and works in and through it to control your soul to produce a MINDSET of the flesh (Rom. 8:7).

    3. Verses 10-12 is not speaking about your regenerate spirit but about your SOUL CHOICES because if it were speaking of a FIXED ONCE FOR ALL CONDITION of your spirit he would not have to say "reckon....yourselves....to be dead" because the condition of your spirit, your position by justification IS THAT YOU ARE DEAD TO SIN. What he is referring to is something that must be RECKONED as such so that sin "in your mortal body" SHOULD NOT REIGN so that you "OBEY IT IN ITS LUSTS". Where do these lusts come from? From "SIN IN YOUR MORTAL BODIES." Where does OBEDIENCE to it comes from - YOUR MIND, AFFECTIONS and WILL (soul).


    Now, don't respond to what I have said quickly. Carefully digest the pivotal points I have made as your position is IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile with these pivotal points in this text. (1) What Paul is talking about is that aspect of your person where sin has no more dominion but he says sin CAN have dominion in your mortal body or else there is no point to command them "LET NOT" if that is impossible. If it is impossible because it is a once and for all transaction then to command "LET NOT" is foolish, as the lost cannot obey that command and the saved need not worry about it. (2) What aspect of your human nature that this is not true of is the aspect that needs to "reckon it' as true which is an act of your MIND, AFFECTIONS and WILL. (3) What aspect of your human nature can "OBEY" the lusts is not that aspect which is created in righteousness and true holiness, but rather that aspect which can OBEY THE LUSTS found indwelling in your "mortal body." It is your soul (mind, affections, will) that OBEYS or DISOBEYS.

    Bottom line, you are confusing the REGENERATED aspect of your person and your POSITIONAL aspect with the actual condition of indwelling sin in your "mortal body" and the possibility of indwelling sin being embraced by your soul (MIND, AFFECTIONS and WILL) thus embracing sin as the MINDSET (Rom. 8:7) as a saved person and in a saved person - thus acting like a lost person (Rom. 8:8).

    Iconoclast, are you going to tell us you have never acted like a lost person????? What kind of MINDSET was required for you to act that way? Was it the mindset of SIN HATH NO DOMINION as reckoned by your mind that was responsible for sin in your life at that moment OR was it that mindset described in Romans 8:7 which was responsible for sin at that moment???? Which one was responsible for sin in your life?????
     
    #48 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2015
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    There is a natural man [unsaved]

    There is a spiritual man[saved}

    Those are the two persons spoken of in scripture.

    There is no third person as you propose....Maybe B is with you on this..... but scripture is not....

    YOUR 3rd person is what you say is a "Christian" who is so dominated by the flesh that you claim he lives just like the unsaved,,,,you do it right here in this post.






    i
    This is not name calling..it is identification of what you are doing.

    You and B hold to this 3rd kind of man that scripture does not know. That is why you are both wrong on this verse.

    This is not descriptive of a Christian. You deny the indwelling and active work of the Spirit in sanctification by your very words.







    Quote:
    1]There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus

    2]who walk not according to the flesh,

    3]but according to the Spirit;

    Paul describes Christians who walk....NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.....you say they do

    Paul says they walk according to the Spirit....
    This is all real Chrisitans
    1]no condemnation,

    2]they are In Christ,

    3]do not walk according to the flesh,

    4]they do walk according to the Spirit.

    These are normal qualities of A Christian.....No one is speaking about sinless perfection.Why do you say that? That only distorts the discussion. He does say...they DO NOT walk according to the flesh...He said that and it must be dealt with{whatever it does mean}

    vs. 2: two laws are described; not 3

    for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus
    did set me free from
    the law of the sin and of the death;
    Christians are set free from the law of sin and death....there is another law working in them...paul describes it as the law of the Spirit of lifeIn Christ Jesus.

    Paul does not say he has two natures does he. He describes a struggle between His mind and his yet to be redeemed body which is still able to sin.

    You start with a wrong base...{two natures} then you try and build on it compounding your error.



    Quote:
    now vs 3; 3 for what the law was not able to do,
    in that it was weak through the flesh, THE FIRST ADAM FAILED AS A LAW BREAKER


    Quote:
    now vs4: 4 that the righteousness of the law may be "fulfilled in us,
    who do not walk according to the flesh,
    but according to the Spirit.

    two men contrasted......not 3 men...only two DHK...can you see it yet?, do you still want to just "skip" down to vs 5???? sure you do...so you can go on about your falsehood of the carnal christian[:

    You do when you affirm a person called a "carnal Chrisitian"
    Paul has already stated they do not walk according to the flesh....your argument is with him...
     
    #49 Iconoclast, Jan 18, 2015
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No. I am not confusing this at all. God saves all of us[body and soul]...we are just not glorified with a redeemed body yet...we still are in a body that is able to sin, there are deeds of the body, motions of sin.
    God views us as a whole person;

    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

    NO...it does NOT say...the carnal mindset AS you AND DHK might suggest.... you are speaking as if Paul is discussing a philosophy or worldview.
    There is no way you can work through this passage and not clearly see the contrast between those of the flesh, those whose minds are set on the things of the flesh, who are haters of God....and those whom are saved and walk according to the Spirit...

    Christians cannot be described as at enmity to God;
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    To apply this to believers...suggesting it is a mindset is to violate the whole context, the individual text. and to make nonsense of it.The text itself shows that by saying neither indeed can be.

    This is not established anywhere.
    You are speaking as if this is a fact, when soul and spirit are used interchangeably.

    It is doing nothing of the kind. He has been contrasting two different persons, not a conflicted person.Paul has already explained in 7 that the new man now struggles against the impulses of sin the body.....
    not his mind.

    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
    No where does he say he is divided as a spiritual schizophrenic and furthermore when he instructs us on mortification he maintains this distinction.

    Wrong thoughts , wrong people, wrong suggestions and temptations can come our way.....but they are intruders, that are to be mortified and rebuked.

    7 And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.

    8 But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;

    9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
    10 And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.
    11 And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business; and there was none of the men of the house there within.

    12 And she caught him by his garment, saying, Lie with me: and he left his garment in her hand, and fled, and got him out.

    pt 2 to follow
     
    #50 Iconoclast, Jan 19, 2015
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt2
    You are making this distinction...probably based on James, I have heard this, but it cannot be sustained. nevertheless I know you are seeking to deal with the reality of vain thoughts, which also are to be mortified....

    O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.




    5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

    7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

    8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

    9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

    10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

    Seeing ye have put off/and HAVE put on

    Your whole "take" on this is to be rejected as you deny the clear contrast that Paul actually has made. He contrasts two different persons...not one person with two possible "mindsets".....

    Paul was clear his personal struggle was not in his mind, it was the sinful impulses of his body of flesh....warring against the law of His mind,

    Paul lived the Chrisitian life with all its struggles...the Holy Spirit did not live it for him.





    He from chapter 6 on...is not saying {reckon} as if to make believe

    He is saying in light of who you are by virtue of saving union with Christ[reckon, ie, live in light of this fact}

    .

    Your pivotal points are misguided....if you see vs 7 as a MINDSET rather than the mind of an unsaved rebellious person governed by the flesh, we will never agree here.


    No...he is saying the reigning power of sin HAS been Broken ....let not sin...because it is now an intruder and being united to Christ it cannot.

    QUOTE]
    If it is impossible because it is a once and for all transaction then to command "LET NOT" is foolish, as the lost cannot obey that command and the saved need not worry about it.[/QUOTE]

    He is simply instructing the saved of the new relationship to sin, just like he does in Eph 4...let him who stole, steal no more, but rather labor to give to others

    As explained...In light of who you are In Christ....

    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    two different outcomes...two different persons described
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    No...you have missed the contrast of the saved and lost, you conflate the two to distort who the saved person is IN Christ.

    Jesus came to save us FROM our sins.....that is now, not future. In the future we will no longer be able to sin.



    All Christians can and do sin. That sin is to act out of character. We are never FREE to sin. We cannot practice sin.

    [/QUOTE]
    Any and all sin is failure to do the will of God. The command is to be Holy as he is Holy.....everyday......not to live as the ungodly and blend right in;

    5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

    2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

    4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    DHK claims that there are many "Christian IDOLATERS

    6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
    12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
     
    #51 Iconoclast, Jan 19, 2015
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  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I never claimed or said anything of a 3rd person. You did. It is false.
    There are two types of people: saved and unsaved.
    However, in Romans 8, only one person was being addressed and that is the believer. Paul is addressing the believers at Rome. He is speaking about their walk with Christ, and how they can walk victoriously--according to the Spirit and not according to their sinful flesh. There is no unsaved person referenced in this chapter.

    Perhaps not name-calling. It was derogatory sarcastic language which was still of the flesh. "...in your narrow limited fundy box," instead of simply referring to me as a "fundamentalist" which you could have done in a more polite or respectful way. So, was it of the flesh or of the Spirit? Would Jesus speak that way? (I am not complaining, I am trying to get you to see that there is no one on this board, not even you, that walks according to the Spirit 100% of the time).
    You are referring to this verse:
    Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    --Were you under the flesh (carnal minded), or under the Spirit (Spiritually-minded) when you wrote those things    ?

    Again, you are the one with the accusation of "a 3rd kind of man." I never suggested such a ridiculous thing. Where do you get it from?
    There is one man: two natures. BTW, until recently, with the onset of this new Reformed movement this was the standard Calvinist belief--that all men have a depraved nature. That depraved nature doesn't leave man when he gets saved. The Holy Spirit comes by the power of the Holy Spirit to indwell man, and he is regenerated/saved. But there is always that struggle within the believers that Paul described in Romans 7. It is victory over sin that we must attain, and it is a daily battle. Paul said: "I die daily."

    With every command of Christ (or Paul) there is always a choice: to obey or disobey. That is what Romans 8 is about. Obedience: obeying the Spirit, or disobeying and giving into the flesh instead.
    Whenever you sin, you give into the flesh.

    Here is your statement to Biblicist:
    "All Christians can and do sin. That sin is to act out of character. We are never FREE to sin. We cannot practice sin."
    --That "out of character" sin is "according to the flesh" (Rom.8:5), and cannot please God (Rom.8:8). We all can and do sin, as you admit.

    Does that describe you? 100% of the time? every day? every month? every year? That is not grace; that is law.
    Here is what you are describing.

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    --A sin is a transgression of the law (1John 3:4).
    A sin is of the flesh, according to the flesh, and not according to the Spirit.
    If you are walking according to the Spirit you will not sin.
    The above verse in Galatians says that if you sin or break the law but one time in your life you are cursed. You have described a life under the law.
    But that is not what Christianity is all about. It is grace.

    You admitted:
    "All Christians can and do sin. That sin is to act out of character. We are never FREE to sin. We cannot practice sin."
    --Therefore there are times when you do walk according to the flesh.
    The statements are general descriptions, not absolutes.
    They are a general description of how a believer "walks" in his Christian life. They don't mean he never sins, though all sin is "of the flesh," and all sin "is carnal."
    All sin is of the flesh, and therefore the statements are not absolutes.
    They are general statements.
    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    --One law sets you free from another law as long as you submit to the principle of the law! There are no free passes. You play an active role here. You must submit yourself to the Holy Spirit.
    Admit it: If you want to give into your flesh right now you could. You could allow your fingers to type a line of profanity on this board to be publicly read by hundreds or even thousands--and that would be acting of the flesh. It would be you submitting to the flesh.
    Or, you could continue having a rational discussion with nothing but noble intentions, thinking of others rather than yourself. That is according to the Spirit. It is a part of "denying oneself," that Christ commanded. We are given the choice.
     
    #52 DHK, Jan 19, 2015
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes he does, and it is hard to miss it. Go back and read Romans 7:14-25. His testimony is very strong about having two natures.
    It is all throughout the NT: "put off, put on...the old man, the new man..."

    I have no idea what you are talking about and why this false accusation of a 3rd man. You are way out in left field (perhaps on 3rd base).
    I have maintained ONE MAN, but that one man has two natures: one of the flesh and the other of the Spirit as is so aptly described in the first 9 verses of Romans 8.

    Your allegorization of scripture is abusive.
    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    --There is no mention of Adam.
    There is a contrast between the law of Moses and the Spirit. The Pharisees claimed there were 613 OT laws. The Jews could not obtain salvation living under the law. This is what the law could not do--bring salvation.
    Therefore, God sent his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh...
    There is no contrast to Adam. Christ did what the law could not do. He paid the penalty for all our sins, the sins of the whole world.
    That the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in what? Not in the law, but in Christ.
    Those who disobey Christ and do not walk according to the Spirit are carnal Christians. That is what Paul calls the Corinthians in 1Cor.3:1-5.

    1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    --Denying "Carnal Christians" is denying the Word of God, for it plainly states it above.
    That is not an absolute statement but a general description.
    If you can point me to one believer who has "not walked according to the flesh" 100% of his Christian life,

    Then I will show you a person who:
    1. has deceived himself.
    2. does not have the truth in him.
    3. makes Christ a liar.
    4. does not have the Word in him.

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Do you always walk according to the Spirit; always NOT according to the flesh--ALWAYS??
     
    #53 DHK, Jan 19, 2015
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    God does not view or treat our ENTIRE PERSON as redeemed except in regard to eternal purpose and in regard to our positional legal sense and .However, in regard to sin in our present life, sanctification is not viewed as already completed or finished. As long as you are determined to believe God views and deals with our sanctification as already finished, or treats our WHOLE person as already saved, there is no point in continuing any discussion with you. Entire sanctification may be the ultimate object to be accomplished but it is not not viewed as accomplished nor treated as accomplished. However, you are determined to defend that error and so that ends all objective discussion.
     
    #54 The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2015
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK

    You do not like the term I used to describe it as you did not use it, but you have used this teaching and do each time you teach that there is a;

    1]Natural/fleshly unsaved person

    2] Spiritual saved person

    3] a person who you say is saved...but is under the dominion of the flesh, living as an unsaved person day by day for months and years.

    before these 2 posts are finished you will describe #3 again
    I agree....it is quite false:thumbsup:

    Oh good.....we agree. Things will go smooth now!

    Okay, yes Romans was written to the saints, yes.

    fatal error....I just cannot understand how you can really believe this:confused:

    Do you know if any commentator ever has expressed this idea?
    If you took a poll on BB...I do not know if you would get anyone to agree...well then again on BB you probably could:laugh:

    DHK....I am sure I could take more time and speak in a more respectful way .
    I was not concerned with the appearance as much as the content.

    I will show in these two posts exactly why I think what I posted is descriptive of your posts toward me, and others you interact with. It is not sarcastic as much as it is descriptive{not a flattering description.

    what I mean by this phrase is on display in these threads.

    You want to stuff me into a mold that you can answer....so you are going to go off3,4,5,times per post where .....you invent a strawman that you can defeat, rather than deal with the substance of what is being discussed...

    I will show this shortly.....
    are when I think the proper debate term would be.....argument absurdum... you distort things to bizarre proportions and thereby mis-represent the posting......

    Now I will show you each of these two descriptions as I work through your post,ok?

    Argument Absurdum[AA}......I have plainly stated that I do not believe or teach in sinless perfection in this life. I have posted this several times
    ...So what do you do? you post as if I had said sinless perfection was possible.
    By doing this you believe you have provided an answer, when you have not.

    You cannot understand what I post to you as I believe two men are contrasted, you believe it is a saved person who has two personalities.

    Biblical Christians are Spiritually minded. Some more than others, differing gifts, abilities, mental and emotional capacities, experience, etc....but all are spiritually minded......as romans 8:6 describes

    6 For to be carnally minded is death; {the unsaved}
    but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.[The saved]

    from the content of your posts...although I might have to re-evaluate, you seem to deny that there is any saved person who walks according to the Spirit.
    maybe once in awhile a believer actually does?????

    we differ as the old man was crucified we are told in Romans 6

     
    #55 Iconoclast, Jan 19, 2015
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #56 DHK, Jan 19, 2015
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK


    sure it is....that's why you cannot comment on it....you know it exposed you again.

    I believe the historic Calvinism as does John M.

    Well my friend DHK...pride comes before the fall....it is time for you to fall big time.You were trying to ridicule and belittle me again, but you are about to be exposed once again...your own errors are crashing in upon you!!!!
    Any of the Old time Baptists did not have to deal with the carnal Christian heresy that is like a plague in the churches now.
    From E.Resinger;
    Two hundred years ago the “Carnal Christian” theory would have been considered a strange, outlandish teaching–a new idea based on erroneous interpretation of one single passage of Scripture (1 Cor. 3:1-4). We will consider the passage later.

    That is the false teaching that you superimpose on the text....you get it from your dispensational friend...yes DHK...CI Scofield...this is exactly where your 3rd kind of person comes from[did you read the notes in your Scofield bible as if it was scripture DHK:laugh::laugh:
    You probably highlighted it didn't you,lol...I will post it for those who might never have seen it;
    The teaching of the two categories of Christians has been popularized by the Scofield Bible, Dallas Theological Seminary and Campus Crusade for Christ.

    A quote from the Scofield Bible clearly sets out exactly what the teaching is: “Paul divides men into three classes: ‘Natural’ i.e. the Adamic Man, unrenewed through the new birth; ‘Spiritual’ i.e. the renewed man as Spirit-filled and walking in the Spirit in full communion with God; ‘Carnal,’ ‘fleshly,’ i.e. the renewed man who walking ‘after the flesh,’ remains a babe in Christ” (Scofield Reference Bible, pp. 1213, 1214, Cf. Rom. 8:5-15).

    It is very important to observe the two main points in this Scofield note. First, the division of men into three classes; second, we are told that one of these classes of men comprises the “carnal,” the “fleshly,” “the babe(s) in Christ,” “who walk after the flesh.” To “walk” implies the bent of their lives; their leaning or bias is in one direction, that is, towards carnality.


    from E.Resinger;
    No DHK...that again is from your Scofield bible notes, not scripture


    I am so glad you love Gill now!

    :laugh: In your zeal and new found love for brother Gill as he used the word flesh in regards to believers....you thought that he agreed with you....WRONG AGAIN DHK......lol......you misunderstood him BIG TIME...in fact , you could not have blundered any bigger.....it is check and mate DHK...

    allow me to help you understand rightly-

    here is what you quoted;

    John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    Romans 8:5
    For they that are after the flesh,…

    By flesh is meant the corruption of nature; and they may be said to be "after" it,
    DHK.....He is saying that it is speaking of the unsaved....which you deny are spoken of in Romans 8

    A proper reading of Gill tells us that watch


    not all that have flesh in them,
    for the best of saints have it in them;

    This part in green is a contrast DHK...all men saved and unsaved are made of flesh....He is speaking of those who are....AFTER IT...AFTER THE FLESH AS IN VS 5....
    here it is again;
    By flesh is meant the corruption of nature; and they may be said to be "after" it,

    You know how else we can be sure of this DHK.......Gill Himself tells us he is speaking of the saved and the UNSAVED.....unlike you who deny the unsaved are spoken of...lol

    let me BOLD those parts you did not see....lol


     
    #57 Iconoclast, Jan 19, 2015
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt2

    and then in Romans 8:9, the apostle returns to the argument from whence be had digressed, and suggests, that though he had said the above things of unregenerate men,


    he had other thoughts of those to whom he writes; they were not in the flesh, nor minded the things of the flesh, and so were not liable to condemnation and death;

    and which he proves by the inhabitation of the Spirit of God in them; for such who have him not, have no proof nor evidence of their being Christ's, and so consequently have no proof of their security from condemnation; and partly by Christ's being in them, and which is the evidence of their being in Christ, and so of the above privilege, Romans 8:10, the consequence of which is, that though by reason of sin the body is mortal, and does die, yet the soul lives not only naturally, but spiritually, by faith in Christ now, and in glory hereafter, by virtue of Christ's righteousness imputed to it, and so is free from condemnation and death; besides, by virtue of the Spirit's dwelling in them, their mortal bodies will be quickened in the general resurrection, Romans 8:11,
    and from all these blessings of divine goodness, both in soul and body, the apostle infers, that the saints are under obligation, not to live in a carnal, but in a spiritual manner, Romans 8:12,


    and to which he exhorts, Romans 8:13, and presses by motives, taken from the different consequences of those things; death following by living after the flesh, and life through the mortification of sin, by the Spirit of God: and whereas the walking after the Spirit, by which he had described those that are safe from condemnation, is owing to their being led by him; and their being led by him, being an evidence of their divine sonship, Romans 8:14, from [/QUOTE]

    t2[/QUOTE]


    So Gill did not say this after all...in fact Gill trounces your false view,

    The Lordship teachers do a much better job of speaking about the flesh lusting against the Spirit....not two natures...but the new man in the old body the new man mortifying the 'deeds of the body"

    E.resinger

    you see this DHK...lordship men understand the fruit of the flesh, the fruit of the Spirit....and still know the carnal Christian heresy is wrong

     
    #58 Iconoclast, Jan 19, 2015
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  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Q. 77. Wherein do justification and sanctification differ?

    A. Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification, yet they differ, in that God in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ; in sanctification his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof; in the former, sin is pardoned; in the other, it is subdued: the one cloth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation; the other is neither equal in all, nor in this life perfect in any, but growing up to perfection.

    Q. 78. Whence ariseth the imperfection of sanctification in believers?

    A. The imperfections of sanctification in believers ariseth from the remnants of sin abiding in every part of them, and the perpetual lustings of the flesh against the spirit, whereby they are often foiled with temptations and fall into many sins, are hindered in all their spiritual services, and their best works are imperfect and defiled in the sight of God.

    This is written by lordship guys DHK....
     
    #59 Iconoclast, Jan 19, 2015
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Again, what does John Gill say:
    "walking after the Spirit" or according to the Spirit (Romans 8:5)
    What does he believe?
    One man (one believer), but two natures--spiritual and carnal.
    The believer, though having a spiritual nature, is grieved when his mind is given over to carnal matters. But it happens. We live in the flesh, and are not perfect. We give into the desires of the flesh because we are human. If we do not admit to this fact then we are claiming sinlessness.
    All sin is of the flesh; all sin is carnal. It doesn't matter if the sin was for one minute, one hour, one day, one week. Sin is sin. God hates sin. He hates the carnality that sin brings. He calls it "adultery." Those that commit such are "enemies of God." No man is sinless. All sin is carnal. Thus the "carnal Christian.
    Yes, Gill believes in this. You can't twist his words to say otherwise.
     
    #60 DHK, Jan 19, 2015
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