1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured How did the Apostle Paul get it so wrong?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jan 15, 2015.

Top Posters
Page 5 of 8
  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Come let us reason together

    Those who reject Romans 7:14-25 as referring to Paul in a regenerate condition usually make their whole argument based upon verse 14.

    However, what if verse 14 and the words "I am carnal" and "sold under sin" only refers to what Paul continues to speak of as "this body" and "my members" and "my flesh" in distinction to "my mind I serve God" and "the inward man" who delights in God's Law????

    Does not Paul teach the very same thing in 1 Corinthians 15:53-57 concerning the present state of the believer's body? Does he not call our present state of the body "corruptible" and "corruption" and still in need to be freed from the power of sin???? Or can "corruption" be attributed to the Spirit of God and the new birth????

    SECOND: How is it that an unregenerated man can "serve God with my mind" while at the same time "but with the flesh the law of sin"?

    THIRD: How is it that an unregenerated man can "delight in the Law of God" if the true state of those "in the flesh" is "enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God and NEITHER INDEED CAN BE"????

    FOURTH: How is it that the personal pronoun "I" can be distinguished from "the inward man" and from "my flesh" if man is not a three dimensional being?

    I - soul/mind - self-conscious personality (intellect, affections, will)
    Inward man = born again spirit
    Flesh = body
     
    #81 The Biblicist, Jan 21, 2015
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,570
    Likes Received:
    2,893
    Faith:
    Baptist
    An unregenerate man can't. Only the regenerate man with the law written in his heart can:

    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
    15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2
     
    #82 kyredneck, Jan 21, 2015
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I do not reject that Paul spoke of a regenerate person in romans 7.....at all.....there is no reason to do that.
     
    #83 Iconoclast, Jan 21, 2015
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    He is giving positive instruction to live in light of who you are....he does the same thing in EPH5;
    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them
     
    #84 Iconoclast, Jan 21, 2015
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    8. "....Walk AS children of light." Commands have purpose, intent.
    --The command would be needless, of no use, if it were not possible to walk AS children of darkness. They were children of light and they needed to walk AS children of light. But the fact remained. They could still walk according to their old nature AS children of darkness.
    Many Christians do.

    10. Prove what is acceptable unto the Lord. Though written as a participle it is equivalent to a command. Why would we have to "prove" what is acceptable to the Lord, if we were able in our bodies to demonstrate what is not acceptable to the Lord by the desires of our flesh.

    ASV--Romans 12:2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

    11. Have no fellowship with the works of darkness...
    Obviously it is possible to have fellowship with the works of darkness.
    If we took a poll on the BB, how many would be honest enough to admit that they have at one time in their life or another have entered a porn site on the web. (having fellowship with the works of darkness)
    Actually you can disregard that. Just look at this one post in the Pastoral forum:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2174721&postcount=1
    That should tell you all you need to know.

    People, believers, struggle with "the works of darkness." That is why Paul put that command there. If there was no struggle with it, it wouldn't be needed, would it. It would be a "useless piece of writing not relevant to anyone." But all Scripture is inspired of God and is profitable... It has purpose.
     
    #85 DHK, Jan 21, 2015
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Alright, lets go to the next step. Do you agree that Paul in Romans 7 is making three different distinctions in his person?

    1. "I" (my mind)
    2. "my flesh" (members, body)
    3. "Inward man"


    Second, will you admit that the law of sin is operating in "my members...flesh"? rather than in his "inward man"???

    Third, will you admit that the "law of his mind" which he delights in, can be overcome by the "law of sin" dwelling in his members; thus transforming his mind to administer sin through his body?

    Fourth, will you admit that the "law of his mind" or the law "I" delight in, and "I" would do good, is being warred against by the law in his members so that "I" is overruled so that good is not performed but evil is performed, thus taking control over "my mind" instead of the "law of God AFTER THE INWARD MAN"? Thus making the soul of man ("I" "me" "my mind" the battle zone between the "inward man" and the "law of sin" in my flesh?
     
    #86 The Biblicist, Jan 21, 2015
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,570
    Likes Received:
    2,893
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I suggest you're making complex the simple. "I delight in the law of God after the inward man", and, "I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God", are synonymous. IOW, 'the mind' and 'the inward man' are the same. The conflict is consistently between TWO, the flesh and the Spirit, NOT THREE, as you are now muddying the waters with:

    12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
    16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2
     
    #87 kyredneck, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    The Word of God is simple. You are taking the simple and straightforward meaning and making it complex by throwing in scripture that have nothing to do with the context of Romans 7
     
    #88 DHK, Jan 21, 2015
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,570
    Likes Received:
    2,893
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ?????

    So you agree with the Bib? There's three dogs in this fight instead of two?
     
    #89 kyredneck, Jan 21, 2015
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    NONE have us here would argue for christians are better off willfully sinning against the Lord, but we would also state that you seem to make no provision for the truth that even saved persons can still sin, some in a big way for a season, and yet still repent and return back to the lord!
     
    #90 Yeshua1, Jan 21, 2015
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Y1

    ,

    I asked you a few weeks ago before you disappeared which sins did you not have to repent of? You never answered. I asked you that because you said something about not leaving all sin.

    In this thread alone several such statements were made;

    The reigning power of sin is definitely broken.....we are still able to sin, but sin shall not have dominion over you


    Did you read the thread?

    So it is made perfectly clear to us in Scripture that we have to live our entire lives as Christians confronting the remnants of sin within us. What is the consequence of that? The consequence is strife; there is ongoing war between ourselves – renewed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit – and remaining sin. That conflict is what we meet in the Bible isn’t it? We see it in Galatians 5:16&17; “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.” Our flesh is fed up at its juxtaposition alongside our renewed spiritual nature, but the two cannot to parted. I as to my flesh and I as to my spirit are chained together. There is no possibility of a separation and no possibility of a truce. There is ongoing war; the flesh is always trying to prevent our obedience, trying to trip us up, turning down the thermostat of our hearts so that they grow cold, putting stumbling blocks in front of us each day, encouraging resentful critical thoughts of others, making us bitter and justifying our weak discipleship. There is ongoing conflict, and so we find that we cannot obey God absolutely perfectly as we would.

    If you do not answer when people ask you questions, why should anyone answer you?
     
    #91 Iconoclast, Jan 21, 2015
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The conflict is between our flesh/sinful natures and the Holy Spirit/new natures...

    And the truth is that NONE of us have a fully surrendered/repentent lifestyle all the time here, correct?
     
    #92 Yeshua1, Jan 21, 2015
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    what do you mean by fully surrendered?

    what is partially surrendered?

    s.cole-

     
    #93 Iconoclast, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    J ligon Duncan

    Well, Paul has more encouragement in store for us in this great chapter, as he works through the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. And today in particular, he shows us a contrast between a person who is in the Spirit, in whom the Spirit dwells, and a person who is not in the Spirit, but rather in the flesh in whom the Spirit does not dwell. And he says, look at the difference of the character, look at the difference of the desires, the attitudes, the conduct between someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and someone who is not.

    Look at what he does. In verse 5, he says That those who are after the flesh, he's speaking of pagans here. That pagans set their minds on the things of the flesh. They’re thoughts, they’re interests, they’re desires, they’re purposes are focused on this life. And they do not look at the things of this life from the standpoint of God's glory, or their neighbors good. They are self-centered, and they are pursuing their own agendas, and they have set their mind on the things of the flesh, things that will pass away.

    Secondly, notice in verse 7 at the very beginning of that verse. He indicates that they are hostile to God. "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God." So the reason the mind set on the flesh is death is because it is hostile to God, to be against God, to reject His rule by doing what they want to do rather than what the Lord commands. This, by the way, doesn't indicate some sort of an outburst of anger against God. We have perhaps known friends, in the midst of tremendous trials in their lives, who have become angry toward God. The apostle is not talking about that here. He's not thinking so much of an emotional reaction against God. He's not even talking about something you could necessarily see outwardly. He's talking about a person who decides, "I am doing this my way, I don't care what God says. I know that God says for me to be faithful to my wife, but I don't want to. I know that God says for me to have these as my priorities, but I want these as my priorities." This is a person who is going to do his own way; he's hostile toward God.

    And so, he says fifthly in verse 8, that the pagan cannot please God. It is absolutely impossible to please God and love the flesh and love mammon at the same time. And so Paul gives these indications of a person who is in the flesh, a person who is apart from the influences of the Holy Spirit.

    Now, he describes for us the Christian by contrast. He only gives one explicit contrast between the pagan and the Christian. You see that in verse 5. Whereas, the pagan's mind is set on the flesh, the Christian's mind is set on what? The things of the Spirit. But by implication and by inference in the rest of this section, he tells us what a Christian looks like. A Christian sets his mind on the things of the Spirit. His heart is controlled by the Spirit. His reason, his desires, his will reflect the Spirit's work. His purposes are spiritual. He's at peace with God because of justification. He is reconciled to God, and he has life, a true knowledge in fellowship with God, and he has a tranquility, a peace even in the midst of difficult circumstances because of that justification that God has granted to him.

    In verse 7, the Christian, in contrast to the pagan, does subject his mind to the law of God. The mind of the believer is subject to the law of God. He has a reverence for, a love for, a subjection to the law of the Lord. It's the mark of the spirit. He wants to be a Bible Christian. He wants to obey what God commands in His Word.

    Fourthly, the Christian is able to subject himself to the law of God. Whereas the unbeliever is not even capable of subjecting himself to the law of God, the believer is able. Because of the Spirit's change of our hearts, we love the law. And notice again the Christian in verse 8 is able to please God in contrast to the pagan, and he does. The Christian loves to fulfill the law, the Christian loves to fulfill his chief purpose in life, his chief end in life, to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. It's something that he delights in.
     
    #94 Iconoclast, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Robert Haldane notes that...

    In the preceding verse the Apostle contrasts the dispositions and practices of believers and unbelievers; here he contrasts their opposite states and conditions. These two states of carnal and spiritual mindedness include and divide the whole world. All men belong either to the one or the other. They are either in the flesh or in the Spirit; in a state of nature or in a state of grace.



     
    #95 Iconoclast, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    That is a loaded question isn't it?
    It is like me asking you:

    "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
     
    #96 DHK, Jan 21, 2015
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    He made a statement that repentance was not necessary, that it was not necessary to forsake all known sin....let me look for it....


    here it is;


     
    #97 Iconoclast, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    This is what he posted:
    And you responded with a bunch of rhetorical questions (which you posted above), never answering his questions. Answering a question with another question is really no answer at all.

    Another poster used to believe the same relative philosophy that you seem to be proposing: If a person should suddenly die and not have some "unrepented sin" taken care of, then he would lose his salvation, or you would just say he was never saved in the first place. Is that what you believe? (IOW, there is no reason to have unrepented sin).
     
    #98 DHK, Jan 21, 2015
  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,326
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would say that Paul makes the same argument here: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Cor 5:5,6

    Here we have people who have been given the Holy Spirit, but as long as they are in the body, the earthly house of tabernacle, they will be absent from the Lord. The flesh and blood man Adam was created carnal sold under sin.

    The creation, including Adam was subjected to futility, corruption and death; In HOPE. And that hope is, the resurrected Jesus born in the flesh, carnal, of woman but raised from the dead, quickening Spirit. 1 Cor 15:45,46

    He is the firstborn, not the first resurrected, from the dead and it will not be until we are conformed to that resurrected, born again from the dead image, that he will be the firstborn among many.

    It is the body that must be born again. The soul whether living of dead must be housed in a spiritual, living body in order to be with the Lord. to inherit, enter and or see the kingdom of God.
     
    #99 percho, Jan 21, 2015
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    If you have the Spirit of Christ IN YOU then the Lord is not absent FROM YOU as the Lord is WITH you. Paul is referring to absence from the place where God's special presence is manifested in heaven.
     
    #100 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2015
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 5 of 8
Loading...