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how did we get depraved anyway?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Aki, Feb 11, 2003.

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  1. Aki

    Aki Member

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    some thoughts:

    1. our personal sin did not get us condemned. they just prove to us that we are! in fact at birth, even before our first sin, we are already condemned.

    2. it is the original sin of Adam that got us condemned.

    the critical question is: how?

    are we guilty of the original sin? none of us committed it, but we are in Adam, as it was God's sovereign act to design it that way!

    the point is, we got condemned because guilt was imputed on us, and not because we did something disobedient. this means that though God is not the author of sin, He is the one who caused us to have the guilt and depravity imputed upon.

    so now, on however one looks at man's depravity, it is not to be neglected that God imputed us the guilt that got us depraved.

    if one believes that total depravity means that man will not respond to God, it should be remembered that God caused us our depravity.

    if one believes that God elected some with an effectual calling, it should be remembered that God caused us our depravity.

    but if one believes that God sovereignly caused us our depravity so that Christ's death automatically encompasses us and that anyone is able to believe or not upon conviction, then each man chooses his own judgment.

    this is unless someone believes that each man is guilty of the original sin not because he was imputed with it but because each one committed it.

    [ February 11, 2003, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: Aki ]
     
    #1 Aki, Feb 11, 2003
  2. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    I didn't understand all of your post. Nevertheless, those who want to complain that it is "unfair" that Adam's sin is imputed to us should also cry the same regarding those who believe. They have Christ's righteousness imputed to them by God's free grace, and not by their own works.
     
    #2 Rev. G, Feb 11, 2003
  3. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    What is the first sinful act that each and every one of the human race commits? Disobedience. The very same sin that Adam and Eve committed in the garden. Our first sin is disobedience to our parent. We do something we were told we were not to do. If our parent is wise we received swift repremand maybe even an attention getting punishment such as a swat on the diaper (Not from rage, but from love).
    Don't blame God. God did not impute guilt and God is not responsible for depravity on us, we are guilty by virtue of the fact that we, beginning with Adam, willfully disobey God's commandments to us. Depravity and sin are not in God's Job description, but he does allow us while his grace is dominant,to become depraved and sinful.

    How are you using the word "imputed"? Do you use it to say that God did something that altered His created man by introducing something into the human that was not there when he breathed life into the dust of the earth? You'd be wrong in that! There is nothing, absolutely nothing written anywhere that indicates God has altered what He called "very good". So get that idea out of your thoughts. It did not happen!
    First, Not all men are depraved! Second, Our guilt was not imputed to us. God established the law. If man obeys the law, there is no room for guilt. Because man breaks the law, man is guilty by his own violation of the law, and not by anything that God may or may not do. God would rather that we not break His law! Because we (humanity) failed Him, He made "Plan J" (Jesus) to take upon himself the sins of all humanity. Plan J includes something that man can of his own free will that enables him to be redeemable. That something is "Belief in Jesus". Yes, man can do that all by himself, God made that so!
    NO! God did not Cause depravity, HE allows it! If you are using the word depravity from Paul's writing to the Romans, then you are misapplying the word. Paul was addressing a Roman condition, and not the condition of all humanity. Needless to say, man does have the propensity to become totally depraved, but not all men do, or are.
    God does not cause depravity, he allows man, by man's free will, to become depraved of his own doing, but not all become depraved, unless you want to establish "levels" of depravity where the smallest occurance of disobedience such as "a little white lie" is the lowest level, and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the highest level. The Christ's death on the cross covers all mankind, the Christ said so! Man does have the ability to believe, and to recognize conviction of sin. Man did not however develop the plan whereby man can be redeemed by his own action.
    Like I stated above, the very first sin that man commits is the same sin that Adam committed, "disobedience".
     
    #3 Yelsew, Feb 11, 2003
  4. Aki

    Aki Member

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    whatever first personal sin each person commits, it is never the cause of his separation from God - Adam's sin is!

    the truth is, imputation of the original sin on everyone is an act of grace! Christ cannot die or offer salvation to those who are not yet condemned. that is why God designed Adam's sin to get everyone guilty and condemned, in effect getting everyone reached by Christ's sacrifice. God will not actually wait for anyone to commit his first sin to get him condemned. rather, a person is already condemned even at birth, before committing his first sin, so that he is automatically under God's grace - this is one great combination of God's genius and grace.


    now that's new

    regarding salvation and cause of condemnation, only one principle applies to everyone, even as discussed in the book of Romans.

    you see discuss God's grace and sovereignty only at His plan of salvation. i, howerver, see God's sovereignty also in getting us condemned to include us in Christ death! i'm not crying "it's unfair. i'm saying "it is grace"!

    it is the first that man commits as a spirtually dead or depraved person, and not the cause of of death!
     
    #4 Aki, Feb 12, 2003
  5. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Sin is what separates man from God! It matters little whether it was Adam's sin or our own sin. Every one of us sin, and by that sin we are separated from Holy God.
     
    #5 Yelsew, Feb 12, 2003
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I think it had something to do with free will. ;)
     
    #6 npetreley, Feb 12, 2003
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    What a convoluted chain of thought.
    You are saying that the infant who is not yet capable of sinning cannot enter heaven? Since there is no sin in heaven if a sinless human infant were to enter heaven, sin would not be introduced by that infant. The infant would have no opportunity to sin and is therefore innocent of sin and is not condemned for the infant has not yet grown into its ability to believe or not believe and thereby be self condemned.
     
    #7 Yelsew, Feb 12, 2003
  8. Aki

    Aki Member

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    it is only one sin that got us condemned - the so called original sin. and to prove us that we are condemned, God gave the law! our disobedience to the law is never a cause of our spiritual death - rather it is the effect.

    an infant is automatically guilty of Adam's sin even at his birth. with this, he gets condemned, and thus a recepient of Christ's salvation. if he dies before having the ability to believe, God is free to save that infant.

    if a baby is born without the original sin, he will have to wait to commit his first sin before getting condemned, and thus cannot be included the the saving work of Christ. remember, one must first get condemned before the salvation of God can be recieved. if your case is the one to apply, then an infant who dies is withtout sin yet without Christ's salvation.

    for the case of infants, it is not: he has not yet sinned and therefore saved.

    but rather it is: he has the sin of Adam and therefore spiritually dead, and therefore Christ's salvation is given to Him. what remains now is God's decision to save the infant or not. if God saves the infant, He will not be violating His rigtheousness for no sin will enter His kingdom, because Adam's sin in the infant is paid for by Christ.
     
    #8 Aki, Feb 12, 2003
  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Since it is inbred... Guess what! You are dead!... It is the sin nature... And everyone that has life... Zygotes... Babies... Boys and girls... Grown men and women have a sin nature!... All are depraved and sinners or none are saved... Because Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners... And the Apostle Paul said I'm the chief of them all... Depraved in Adam saved in Christ... But only the elect that God gave the son to save! [​IMG] ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
    #9 tyndale1946, Feb 12, 2003
  10. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    Rev. G and tyndale1946, good answers. Keep it up!

    rufus [​IMG]
     
    #10 rufus, Feb 12, 2003
  11. Aki

    Aki Member

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    ...but God designed that everyone got condemned in Adam...so one is condemned not because of himself...and God designed everyone to be depraved...and then only the elect that God gave his son to save?...is that grace?...no, it's pure sovereignty... and a mean cruel one!

    ...but then again God got everyone condemned... so that Christ's death will reach everyone...the Holy Spirit convicts sinners... they may accept or reject Christ upon conviction... and they choose their own judgment... now that's sovereignty... both in condemning and saving... and that's grace... and a far better one!
     
    #11 Aki, Feb 13, 2003
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