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Featured How did you first come to your pre-trib rapture view?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 37818, Sep 18, 2022.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    HORSE FEATHERS!
    None of them sat in the temple & proclaimed themselves God & demanded to be worshipped. And Paul wrote "man of sin", not "army of sin".


    MORE HORSE FEATHERS ! Both 2 Thess.2:4 & Rev. 13 say "man of sin/beast", singular, not plural.

    John prepared the way for many Jews to accept Jesus as Savior by his preaching. He indeed prepared His way. And the events I questioned you about did NOT occur then.



    Evidently, you don'e believe Matt. 24:29-31 or Rev. 19:11-21. And He will abide here, in Jerusalem, til the millenium is up.
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    PEA BRAIN!

    If you're looking for an individual this guy is as good as any candidate:

    "Josephus also records that before this John of Gischala, the son of Levi, was established as the Zealot leader in control of the Temple area (there were three Zealot factions), the power of Satan was already doing his deceitful and treacherous work. This John physically entered the Temple, presented himself to the Zealots as a God-sent ambassador; and persuaded them to defy the laws of Rome and go to war to gain independence. He also instigated the calling in the Idumaeans to keep the Jewish sympathizers from submitting to Rome. He ordered the death of Ananus and the removal of the priesthood. After these atrocities, he became the official leader of the Zealot group m control of theTemple area-john held the temple" and began disregarded the laws of Rome, God, and man, and promising deliverance from the Romans. Then he broke off from the Zealots and began "setting up a monarchial power." He "set on fire these houses that were full of corn, and of all other provision which would have been sufficient for a siege of many years" He deceived the Jews about the power of the Roman armies In possession of the Temple and the adjoining parts, he cut the throats of anyone suspected of going over to the Romans.13 He performed many sacrileges, such as melting down the sacred utensils used in Temple service, and defiled the Temple.

    In short, this John established himself in the Temple, the one standing when Paul wrote, and put himself above Rome and above God, thereby taking the place of God in the Temple. All this happened, right then and there, and exactly as Paul had said the "man of sin" would do.

    After the coming of the Lord and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70, John of Gischala was "condemned to perpetual imprisonment" by the Roman authorities. Thus was fulfilled Paul's prophetic and symbolic language that this man would be destroyed by "the spirit of his Jesus mouth and brightness of his [parousia] coming" (see Isa. 11:4; 30:27-33; Hos. 6:5; also Da. 7:8, 19-28).

    Verses 11-12. "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but delighted In wickedness."

    Josephus records that the Roman General Titus had no intention of destroying the Temple. The Romans wanted to preserve it as a trophy and monument of their conquest. Even Josephus personally pleaded with John of Gischala to surrender. But such a "madness" swept through him and his Jewish followers that they taunted the powers of Rome and refused to listen. This man, John, through the power of Satan and the delusion sent by God upon the Jewish people, forced the Roman armies to act. Instead of accepting Jesus as Messiah, King, and Deliverer, the unbelieving Jews placed their hopes in this false messiah a man of deceit and wickedness. They looked to the "man of sin" to lead them to victory and independence. The priesthood, which stood in their way, had been removed. And by August or September of A.D. 70, Paul's entire "man of sin" prophecy of 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12 was fulfilled. The city and the Temple were burned and destroyed. The covenant nation of Israel and biblical Judaism were forever destroyed."
    John of Gischala, The man of Lawlessness | The Puritan Board

    Lol, Paul referred to the Church as "one new man" in one place, and as "a new creature" in another.

    Says who, you? Your brutishness with Bible hyperbole and apocalyptic language means nothing. It's quite common among you sensationalists actually. Answer me this robyprophet, what mountains did JTB level, which valleys did he raise, what highways did he straighten? I suppose you are expecting a literal great red dragon w/seven literal heads and ten literal horns with a literal great whore decked out in the high priest garb with a literal cup of abominations in her hand and literally riding the great dragon's back chasing after a woman clothed literally with the sun, moon, and stars; and that this literal great red dragon literally draws a third of literal stars from the heaven and throws them to the literal earth....etc., etc., etc..... ROFL.

    I believe it all. Just not with the skewed vision you have.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    First I think we need to define the "Pre-trip" second coming of Jesus, as the one described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The passage refers to those alive at whatever time it occurs as being "caught up/" and In the passage Christ remains "in the Air" whereas Christ's second "advent" is post tribulation and inaugurates the earthly Millennial kingdom.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Christ can only have one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28, Titus 2:13.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why post this nonsense? Why waste posts and obfuscate? Why not address the issue presented?
    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
    For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.​

    This is the second "coming" of the Lord according to scripture. Thus the post tribulation appearance will be His third coming.

    Now this view can be debated, but should not be ignored.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is no third coming.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More obfuscation, more ignoring the presentation.
    Why post this nonsense? Why waste posts and obfuscate? Why not address the issue presented?
    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
    For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    This is the second "coming" of the Lord according to scripture. Thus the post tribulation appearance will be His third coming.

    Now this view can be debated, but should not be ignored.
     
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    He was referring to JESUS, not His Church.



    Some passages are clearly symbolic, but refer to literal things. An example is what you mentioned above, and also Rev. 17, which an angel explains in the last verses of it.



    I believe it all. Just not with the skewed vision you have.[/QUOTE]
    No; you believe the twisted, man-made pret meanings they assigned to them.
     
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    This is still a future event. Nowhere does Jesus mention two returns.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "Before He establishes His kingdom on earth, Jesus will come for His Church, an event commonly referred to as the "Rapture." At that time the dead in Christ will be raised and living Christians will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.2 In this resurrection, those who have died in Christ will have their redeemed souls and spirits united with a body similar to Christ's glorified body. Christians living at the time of this event will not die, but will be changed to be like Christ.3 This expectation is a motivation for holy living, as well as a source of comfort.4 No man knows the day or the hour when this will take place.5

    After the Rapture of the Church, Christians will be brought before the judgment seat of Christ. He will reward them on the basis of the works they have accomplished.6 This is not a judgment to determine their salvation but a reward for labor on Christ's behalf.7 The Rapture will also inaugurate a period that the Bible characterizes as the "great day of His wrath," "the great tribulation" and the "time of Jacob's trouble."8 This time of unprecedented difficulty will affect Israel and all nations. Its purpose will be to prepare Israel for her Messiah.9

    At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the hosts of heaven as well as the Church to establish the Messianic Kingdom on earth.10 His Kingdom will last for a thousand years.11 At this Second Coming, the Antichrist will be cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan will be bound for a thousand years. 12 The nations and their representatives will be judged.13 Israel will be restored to her land, never more to be removed.14 Christ will reign with firmness and equity.15 His kingdom will be marked by material and spiritual blessing, since the curse upon the earth will be removed." (From Moody Bible Institute)

    Footnotes:
    2: 1 Corinthians 15:51–54; 1 Thessalonians 4:14
    3: 1 John 3:2
    4: 1 John 2:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:18
    5: Matthew 24:36; John 6:39
    6: Romans 14:10–12; 2 Corinthians 5:10
    7: 1 Corinthians 3:9–15
    8: Revelation 6:17; 7:14; Jeremiah 30:7
    9: Zechariah 12:2, 3; 14:1–3
    10: Revelation 19:7–9, 14; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Zechariah 14:9; Revelation 19:15, 16
    11: Revelation 20:2, 4–6
    12: Revelation 19:20; 20:1–3
    13: Joel 3; Matthew 25
    14: Amos 9:15; Ezekiel 34:28
    15: Psalms 2:9; Isaiah 11:4
    16: Romans 8:19-21
     
    #50 Van, Sep 23, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
  11. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    he does not appear when the rapture happens. we meet him in the clouds.

    so there is still only two appearings.
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    There it is. Robyprophet the sensationalist cherry picks the apocalyptic passages he wishes to literalize.
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    All right, since I showed your candidate for the beast was not the beast, please tell us who he was, who the false prophet was, & what the mark looked like.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Him having only two appearings is not the sole issue. There is also only one first resurrection. There is only one "the last" trumpet. And a few other issues.
     
  15. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    It goes deeper than this. and I disagree. there will be people who die during the 1000 year reign, they will be ressurected.

    And I also disagree about the last trumpet..

    I still want to know when these ressurected saints will appear before the bema seat and get their instruction for ruling on earth.

    why are there already ressurected saints in the throne room before jesus opens the first seal.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There exists disagreements in understanding and interpretation regarding the bema seat. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15.
     
  17. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    rev 20 is the great white throne - is a "thronos" judgment. Not a BEMA. And only the unsaved are there, note that death and hades are delivered to himn, then death and hades are cast into the lake of fire.. the 2nd death.
    matt 25 I see as a general revelation of what will occur
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Your view of the "BEMA" has zero Scriptural support. Romans 14:10. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11. But then Jesus before Pilate's Judgment seat, Matthew 27:19.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Many(not all) saints were resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion, but not all. And, like Lazarus, they died again.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but . . .
    Matthew 27:51-53, ". . . the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. . . ."
     
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