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How do Arminians deal with these versus

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Jacob_Elliott, Nov 27, 2013.

  1. Jacob_Elliott

    Jacob_Elliott New Member

    Nov 23, 2013
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    Hey gents/ladies, not really looking to debate I don't think anyone is going to change their position, just wondering how Arminians deal with the following verses as they are frequently used by Calvinist.(if anyone else wishes to debate feel free, please keep it friendly) Please feel free to pick and choose.

    John 6:44
    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    Romans 9:16 ESV
    So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

    Romans 8:29-30 ESV
    For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    2 Peter 1:3-4 ESV
    His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

    Ephesians 1:11 ESV
    In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

    Galatians 1:15-16 ESV
    But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;

    Romans 9:20-24 ESV
    But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

    Romans 9:17 ESV

    For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

    Ephesians 1:1-23 ESV
    Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, ...

    "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."

    Acts 13:48
    "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

    Galatians 1:15/16
    "But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles..."
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

    Aug 27, 2002
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    Non Baptist Christian
    And then Jesus said "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" John 12:32. Same book, same writer - full context.

    No one CAN come to Christ unless Drawn to Him by God -- and God "draws ALL unto Him".

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1

    And thankfully God has mercy on ALL -- "It is the GOODNESS (mercy) of God that leads you to repentance" Rom 2:4-6.

    "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5.

    "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

    Turns out - God knows ALL - not just the FEW of Matt 7.

    Not sure how 2Peter 1 makes any Calvinist case at all.

    in any case --

    1 Peter 1
    2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Romans 8
    29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

    Not all drawn - will come to Christ.

    And Christ "Draws ALL unto Him" John 12:32.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    Jesus was choosing 12 apostles. Choosing for ministry - appointing the Apostles is very different from "drawing ALL Unto Me" John 13:32.

    In 1Cor 12 the ministries and gifts given by the Holy Spirit are individual.

    in Christ,

  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Nov 13, 2011
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    Bob treats scripture like revisionist historians. He takes the latter ONE VERSE in John 12 and reinterprets the previous far more complete expositon of draw in John 6:44-65 to mean exactly the very opposite of what Christ taught.

    John 6:64-65 proves that the Father does not draw all men without exception but only "all" that He gave to come to the Son for eternal life (Jn. 6:37-39; 17;2-3). The "whosoever" in John 6:40 does not exist outside of the "all" and "of all" in John 6:37-39.

    The "all" in John 12:32 does not exist outside of the "all" and "of all" of John 6:37-39 or the "all" of John 6:45a. Neither does the "every man" in John 6:45b exist out of the "all" of John 6:45a or John 6:37-39.

    Jesus is referring to the Greeks in John 12:19-32 who are inclusive in the "ALL" of John 6:37-39 and thus "ALL" races, classes and genders without distinction.

    But "all" were never given by the Father to come to the Son as "of all" given none fail to come and none fail to be saved - John 6:37-39

    But "all" were not drawn by the Father to come to the Son - Jn. 6:44-45 as some were NEVER drawn - Jn. 6:64-65

    The context shows this is a false interpretation as the mercy provided in this context was rejected and will always be rejected by fallen mankind (Rom. 3:9-20).

    Yes, no man will go to hell for the sin of Adam, as Christ redeemed the whole world from the penal consequences of Adam's sin (Jn. 1:29). Every man will be judged "according to their own works" performed in their own body.

    As usual Bob does not quote the portion of a text that contradicts his design. Peter is speaking about "us-ward" or the elect and that God's delay "IS SALVATION" - 2 Pet. 3;15 because NONE that the Father has given to come to Christ shall fail to come.

    Another perverted interpretation as Christ explicitly states there are some in regard to salvation that "I NEVER KNEW YOU" - Mt. 7:23

    Foreknoweldge is "according to God's purpose" (Rom. 8:28-29). God's purpose provides the basis for foreknowledge just as a blue print provides the basis for foreknowlege where every door, light, room, etc. will be before the carpenter every drives a nail or cuts a board as God works all things according to his own purpose (Eph. 1:11; Isa. 46:9-10) right down to a bird flying from one direction to another (Isa. 46:11).

    He convenielty omits verse 28 that explictly states that God works all things "according to his purpose" rather than according to prescience.

    Draws "all" given to him but those in John 6:64-65 were NEVER given, NEVER drawn.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    John 17:2-3 cannot be restricted to the Apostolic office and neither can John 6:37-65.
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Jan 19, 2003
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    After you are done getting explanations from the "Arminian" for passages that appear difficult for them, it would be good to get explanations from Calvinists for those verses which are difficult for them:

    Verses that show election is conditional:
    Matthew 11:28-30 – Salvation is an invite to those who will come.
    John 3:16
    John 4:42
    John 6:40
    John 6:51 – Must eat of the bread of life to receive benefit.
    Acts 13:39
    Romans 1:16-17
    Romans 5:1-2 – It is through faith that we are made a part of Christ.
    Romans 9:30
    Ephesians 1:13
    1 Timothy 4:10 – Jesus died for all, but there is a specific subset that receives the benefits, namely those who believe.

    Verses that show the atonement is available for all:
    Isaiah 53:6 – The iniquity of us all was put on Christ.
    Matthew 11:28-30 – Any who some to Christ are welcome.
    Matthew 18:14 – The Father does not wish that any should perish
    John 1:7 – Jesus intended for all, wants all to believe.
    John 1:29
    John 3:16-17
    John 6:33, 51
    John 12:47
    Romans 3:23-24 – All have sinned and all have access to justification in Christ Jesus.
    Romans 5:6 – Christ died for the ungodly. Since all are ungodly, Christ died for all.
    Romans 5:15 – Since sin spread to all, Christ’s atonement is meant for all.
    Romans 10:13 – Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
    2 Corinthians 5:14-15 – All died, yet Christ died for all.
    1 Timothy 2:3-6 – God desires all men to be saved, and gave Himself for all
    1 Timothy 4:10
    Titus 2:11 – God’s necessary grace that leads to repentance appears to all.
    Hebrews 2:9 – Jesus tasted death for everyone.
    Hebrews 10:10 – Christ offered once for all.
    2 Peter 3:9
    1 John 4:14
    1 John 2:2 – Jesus is the propitiation, not just for believers, but for the whole world.
    John 4:42
    Revelation 22:17

    Verses that show grace is resistible:
    Jeremiah 7:24
    Luke 7:30
    Acts 7:51 – Blatant resistance of the Holy Spirit. It is proper to infer that if they didn’t resist, they would have been led to repentance.
    Romans 10:16 – Not all who hear will believe.
    2 Corinthians 6:1 – One can receive God’s grace, yet not appropriate it in their lives.

    Verses that show we must remain in Christ to be secure:
    Romans 11:17-24
    1 Corinthians 15:2
    Ephesians 5:3-7
    Colossians 1:21-23
    2 Peter 1:10
    2 Peter 2:20-22
    Hebrews 6:4-6
    Hebrews 10:26
    James 1:12; 5:19-20

    Verses that show man has libertarian free will
    Free will offering verses
    Exodus 35:29; 36:3
    Leviticus 7:16; 22:18, 21, 23; 23:38
    Numbers 15:3; 29:39
    Deuteronomy 12:6, 17; 16:10
    2 Chronicles 31:14; 35:8
    Ezra 1:4, 6; 3:5; 7:16; 8:28
    Psalm 119:108
    Ezekiel 46:12
    Amos 4:5
    Isaiah 1:19-20 – Can choose to be obedient or rebel.
    Ezekiel 33:11 – Have the ability to choose from different options.
    Luke 7:30 – Pharisees rejected what God wanted for them.
    John 7:17 – A person must want to do what God is giving them the grace to do. This verse shows that God allows things He doesn’t want to happen.
    1 Corinthians 7:37 – Power over own will–not necessitated–that’s the definition of LFW.
    1 Corinthians 10:13

    Verses demonstrating God’s enabling grace
    Jeremiah 31:3
    John 16:7-11
    Romans 2:4 – It is God’s grace that leads us to repentance.
    Romans 10:14-17 – One must hear God’s word to come to faith.
    Titus 2:11 – God’s grace leads to repentance.

    Verses showing sin is not from God
    Jeremiah 7:24
    James 1:13-15
    1 John 2:16
  5. Jacob_Elliott

    Jacob_Elliott New Member

    Nov 23, 2013
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    I'll let someone else take care of that as I am a Calvinist and have no issues with the mentioned verses
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Jan 19, 2003
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    I'm a non-Cal and thus I'll give you the same answer for your OP... :wavey:
    #6 Skandelon, Nov 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2013
  7. Jacob_Elliott

    Jacob_Elliott New Member

    Nov 23, 2013
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    I appreciate all the effort you made lol
  8. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Apr 26, 2013
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    my response is in bold.
    #8 Jordan Kurecki, Nov 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2013