Featured How Do The RCC/orthodox Churches Fit Ephesians 2:8-9 Into their theologies?

Jesus said, "I have never known you, depart from me you that work iniquity." Even though they had done many great things in His Name, they were lost, never having been born again. The point is: good works are an indicator of salvation--we are saved unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them--Eph. 2. This is part of the teaching of election and pre-destination with which many are having trouble. See Eph. 1-4. Notice God's good will and pleasure. This also helps explain the "L" in TULIP. No, I am not a Calvinist. I put an S on TULIP--S is for Secured/Sealed. No man can pluck them out.

Salvation is of the Lord. So is holiness. He is trying to make us holy--we let our flesh get in the way. Notice the conversion of Saul of Tarsus. He was converted on the road to Damascus. The Lord had to give Paul a lot of personal instruction to get him sanctified.

There are many in high places religiously who have not been born again. Are they working hard? For sure. Are lost? The Lord knows them that are His. The others He does not know. Many have repeat after me salvation.

Peace,

Bro. James

 

You cannot even have faith in Yeshua hamashiach, save you recieved grace from God first. And you can't even walk in a fashion pleasing to God unless you have chosen to accept Yeshua Hamashiach and the faith he provides.

Its a sign that you disobey him. Though I agree it doesn't necissarily mean you'll go to hell. However, disobey him long enough and frequently enough and you'll not only grieve the Holy Spirit, you'll strangle the new man.

Yes we do. Keep that always in mind when speaking about Catholic Theology. However, I must ask you having the free will to walk in the spirit or not what happens if you consistently choose not and never choose to do so?

Exactly!!!! Unlike before where sin was not optional but manditory due to our nature. Jesus Christ gives himself to us that we might live righteously before him "God has shown thee oh man what good and what the Lord requires of thee. To do Justly, to live Rightly, and to walk humbly with thy God." But in order to be victorious you must walk not sit and do nothing but live the divine life God gave you.

 

Again, you created a completely false excuse to avoid the obvious problems I placed before you in the above post. When I pointed out your precise language where you did in fact make it a two step process you simply don't respond at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
Here is your first problem. I didn't make it a two step program. I broke down the condition of the man specifically two aspects of that man to explain a view. So the entirety of the rest of your post is a non-sequitur. And as such you aren't really responding to what I've said. You are just taking an oportunity to preach your view. You niether answer what I said and you go off on a tangent. - WM

If you are not listing two steps then why do you say, "First" and "then"? - TB

Now first God must make that man able to have faith. Then God must offer that faith freely to the man. - WM

 

:applause: Define 'faith'. Define 'work'. Define 'obedience'.

 

No analogy is perfect, but here's another one:

Take marriage. 9 years ago tomorrow my wife and I exchanged vows before a registrar and were married in the eyes of the law of England and Wales (my brother-in-law's joke at the time: "Yesterday, Independence Day; today, Loss of Independence Day!"). That day we were married, on paper, in law and in fact.

Now, suppose since then I:

• Just put my feet up after that and never helped with the chores around the house
• Never helped with the kids
• Never did a night feed or sat up with my kids when they couldn't sleep
• Never told my wife I loved her
• Never sent her a card/ present on Valentine's, anniversary, birthday or Christmas
• Never made love to her
• Never kissed her
• Never held her hand
• Never told her I loved her
• Criticised her
• Beat her
• Never loved her

....would I still really be married to her?

 

In the eyes of God, you would be. In her eyes, you'd be seeing her through two black ones...:laugh:

When we are saved, we become married to God, for we all are the bride of Christ. There are times when we fail in our marriage/walk with God, but we still remain married to Him. In the times of our failures(sinning), He gives us the ole "rolling pin" across the noggin a few times, and we get back in line.

 

Then I would question the definition of marriage held by them both...

 

But if not fulfilled...? What if the party making it has no intention of keeping it?

 

Here again, it obvious that you have a two step process. Note your choice of "first" and "And."

Ephesians 2:8 the term "saved" has been previously defined to refer to being "quickened" as verse 5 demonstrates. Quickening is the reversal of those characteristics spelled out in verses 2-3 (and Eph. 4:17-19).

Ephesians 2:5 says that quickening is by grace and verse 8 says it is "through faith." Ephesians 2:8 uses the perfect tense periphrastic construct. Faith is an inseparable part of that completed action and the phrase "it is a gift of God and not of yourselves" refers to the whole phrase "for by grace are ye saved through faith."

Your two step Catholic explanation simply cannot fit the context or grammar for quickening. Biblically and grammatically there is no such thing as an unregenerated but repentant believer any more than there is a regenerated but unrepentant unbeliever.

 

At bblist are you directly ordained by the apostles as in acts

 

Yes, but is the other party bound to keep it if you enter into it under false pretences eg: an illegal alien who marries a US citizen after convincing her that he's in love with her when he is only doing it to get a green card or similar?

 

I don't have a two step process those are the characteristics on entering salvation. What you propose is robotic effect. God programs you to believe so that you do. No expression of free will is applicable in your theology.

 

Those are both characteristics of entering salvation. Jesus saves. However, you must accept that salvation. If you want to call it steps then fine there are an infinate number of steps to it. Even according to your theology. Ie... First God must decide whom to save. Second God must by his grace "regenerate" the man (which is your word for programing). Thirdly upon the programing God then must make a legal declaration of that man's righteousness. AD infinitum.....

How ever I see salvation as one thing with many different aspects and as for the entry into salvation I see it as Jesus saving us and continuing to save us by his grace. Though it can be broken down as do all things into steps for our human understanding. And I guess I broken down that way to explain the consept which you seem to let go over your head on many occasions.

 

Look again at your two step process. Your "first" step denies human ability or free will does it not? You are claiming that natural man must "first" be enabled to "have faith" which means he has no such ability to have faith.

So your "first" step process is God making them "able" to have faith which is an assertion of universal inability to believe is it not??

So you are suggesting that the there is a third stage that stands between unregenerate and regenerate or a stage where man comes from inability to ability but yet unregenerate.

Can you please provide scripture for this MIDDLE stage between unregenerated (inability) and regeneration?

 

Let me once again quote what I've already said on this thread since you didn't seem to read it:

Which makes your argument a non-sequitur. It doesn't follow.