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How do you explain these verses?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Frenchy, Mar 18, 2006.

  1. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I do so enjoy :rolleyes: reading such edifying, uplifting, aannnn-- [​IMG] z-z-zz-ZUK! uh- dah - oh [shake cobwebs out of head] and informative thr-ea- [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Frenchy:

    Bothers me when someone exalts themselves especially when they are wrong. I guess you meant that you were the one who does not know the scriptures.

    quote: (Frenchy)

    Dear Brother Bob I don't really think bad of anybody, I do not know you. I just hate it when people do not give the full scripture verses when they try to defend their side that's all. It is hard to prove or disprove without it. I had a very hard time finding what you were talking about. thanks for letting me know what it was.

    quote:
    Frenchy:
    You post "did I make it up" says volumes what you think of me but so be it. I do wonder for I am sure you and the others believe you are part of the "elect". Do you all feel superior to the rest of mankind? Your remarks were unnecessary.

    Isaiah, chapter 45

    17": But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    "18": For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    "19": I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    "20": Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

    "21": Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    "22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
    "23": I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    "24": Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

    "25": In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Scripture and theologians frequently use the term ‘election’ to indicate the sovereign choice of God. Scripture speaks of election in three different contexts, only one of which is election unto salvation.

    1. The first context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is the choice of Israel as a people through which the promised redeemer would come.

    Deuteronomy 7:6,7, KJV
    6. For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
    7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:


    Such election is not associated with personal salvation as shown in the following passage.

    Romans 9:6,7, KJV
    6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


    2. The second context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is vocational.

    God called Aaron and his descendants out of the tribe of Levi to be priests but not all were called to salvation. Jesus Christ called twelve men to be apostles but only eleven of them were chosen to salvation.

    3. The third context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is election unto salvation: God the Father Chooses a People For His Own.

    Scripture teaches that God the Father chooses or elects those who, in Jesus Christ, will be saved. That choice or election is the role of God the Father in the Covenant of Grace. Those who are chosen in Jesus Christ will become the Saints, the ‘true believers’.

    The Apostle Paul, writing to the Saints at Ephesus, summarizes this doctrine as follows:

    Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
    3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


    What does Scripture mean when it teaches that God has chosen us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world?

    James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:

    “God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

    John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:

    “All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”

    Dagg’s definition of election is greatly expanded upon in the text and presupposes an understanding of the Covenant of Grace. He does, however, show what Scripture means by the statement chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ]. The elect are given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace, that is they are saved only through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins.

    John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election as follows [Concise Theology , page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]

    “The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom He would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ. This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and a matter for endless praise, that He should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when His choice involved the giving of His own Son to suffer as sin bearer for the elect.”

    W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine , page 155]:

    “It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    We look now at the Scriptural basis for the above statements of the doctrine of election to salvation which follows the method presented by John Dagg, Manual of Theology, page 309ff:

    1. God has a people that He has elected or chosen to salvation.

    1 Peter 2:9, KJV
    9. But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Romans 8:33, KJV
    33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

    2 Thessalonians 2:13, KJV
    13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    Acts 13:48, KJV
    48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    John 6:65, KJV
    65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    2. Election is by the sovereign grace of God.

    Romans 9:15,16, KJV
    15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


    2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
    9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Ephesians 1:5, KJV
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    3. Election is not of works.

    2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
    9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Romans 9:10,11, KJV
    10. And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
    11. (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


    Romans 11:5,6, KJV
    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6. And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


    4. The election of grace is from eternity.

    Ephesians 1:4, KJV
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    2 Thessalonians 2:13, KJV
    13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
    9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Titus 1:2, KJV
    2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    5. Election is not on the basis of foreseen faith.

    Ephesians 1:4, KJV
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Ephesians 2:8-10, KJV
    8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


    Romans 12:3, KJV
    3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    6. Election is according to the foreknowledge of God.

    1 Peter 1:2, KJV
    2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    From the above Scripture we see that election is indeed according to the sovereign grace and purpose of God. These Scripture show the necessity of the sovereignty of God’s grace in salvation. Without election no one would be saved. The Second London Confession of Faith of 1689 states concerning the natural state of man [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith,page 264]:

    “Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as a natural man, being altogether adverse from good, and dead in sin is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.”

    Dagg [Manual of Theology, page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

    “Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

    Herein has been briefly described the doctrine of election, a most precious doctrine that magnifies the sovereign grace of God, a doctrine that was once the bedrock of Baptist beliefs but in recent years has come into disrepute. God’s purpose in election is summarized once again by referring to the passages from Romans and Ephesians:

    Romans 8:28-30, KJV
    28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
    3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
     
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Old Regular:

    Is it necessary to preach repentance , or eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die? I hope to get time this evening to go through each scripture as this one:

    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (this is what he chose before the foundation of the world and this is what it takes to be US. The scriptures have to be able to tie into what Jesus himself said or preaching is in vain.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    How can someone repent unless they first believe?
     
  8. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    Yes Brother Bob I, Oldregular, and others are wrong. your questions have been answered but yet you cannot even explain these verses, you don't answer a question with a question, which goes to show you can't answer it at all.

    “God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

    2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
    9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
     
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Frenchy:

    God did have a plan of salvation and the apostles fit into that plan as shown in the following:

    “God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

    same answer:

    9: Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
    10: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
    11: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentile. Are you one of these Frenchy?
    I certainly believe the apostles were prechosen and his plan of salvation.

    Frenchy: Are you sure that you are one of them or living on a guess? If you are saved by Grace through faith, (why?) if you are already prechosen? And stop being so nasty!!!

    Why preach repentance unto the whole world if only the "elect" can repent?

    OldRegular:

    quote, How can someone repent unless they first believe?

    No need, thought they were prechosen?
     
  10. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    Brother Bob please do not change the wording in the scriptures, this is the way they are found in my OP. so please explain them as they are written in the bible context, not Brother Bob pharaphrased. I still haven't received an answer. please keep personal attacks aside.

    JOHN 15, Jesus said it to His disciples, "You did not choose Me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give it you." You didn't choose Me, I chose you.

    JOHN 17:9, He says of Christians, praying to the Father does our Lord, "I ask on their behalf," this is the high priestly prayer of Christ, "I do not ask on behalf of the world but of those whom Thou hast given Me." The Father chose us and gave us to Christ as a love gift, for they are Thine.

    EPHESIANS 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world."

    2 THESSALONIANS 2 :13, "We should always give thanks to God for you, we shouldn't thank you, we should thank God, "Brethren, beloved by the Lord." Isn't that good? "Because God has chosen you from the beginning."

    2 TIMOTHY 1:9, "God who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and gace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”


    2 TIMOTHY 2:10 , Paul says, "In my ministry I endure all things," "For the sake of those whose name has been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain."

    REVELATION 17: 8, "And those who dwell on the earth will wonder whose name has not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." And again we are told in a backhanded way that Christians are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from beginning, from eternity, from the foundation of the world.

    REVELATION 20, Final judgment, Great White Throne, "If anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life he was...what?...thrown in the lake of fire." When were names put in the book? From before the foundation of the earth.
     
  11. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    Brother Bob quote
    Because that is the way God ordained it! we are merely his TOOLS to which his will be done. Who are you to question why God decided to CHOOSE who he wanted to be saved before the foundation of the world. If he choose for some to be saved and some to be lost and to use Jesus as the means of which that would happen, who are you or anyone to question the Almighty God.

    It would be like me going to an orphanage and choosing who I wanted to adopt. do the ones left behind have the right to cry and question why not me, NO!

    Well God has an even bigger right to decide who he will have for all eternity. And believe me it wasn't based on us AT ALL, none of it was. even the faith that saved us was from him, even the drawing to come to him was from him, even the repentance came from him, even the ability to stay in the faith comes from him.

    To say otherwise is to be arrogant and not allow God to be God. For those who believe they can lose their salvation are very prideful and are slapping God in the face saying he isn't big/strong enough to keep that which he purchased and died for.
     
  12. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    OldReg: That was some impressive posting. You're going to put everyone to sleep with your precise definitions! Some of these folks want to debate legend, not fact. [​IMG]
     
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    So,God created the vast majority of mankind so He could destroy them. Hogwash :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Please excuse the previous post, just let nature get in the way for a second.

    2 Peter, chapter 1


    "1": Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    "2": Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

    "3": According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

    "4": Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    "5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

    "6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

    "7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

    "8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    "9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    "10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    Why would it tell me to add these things if I had nothing to do with it? Also, how could my calling and election be lost if I was one of the elect? I was just wondering!! :confused:
     
  15. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    One problem, Israel is elect and precious, but Jacob never was elect.

    I wonder why some one will post multiple verses and ask for those to answer them, but that would take hours, so why don't we just limit this to one verse at a time?

    The Presisdent "elect" is not yet President, neither was he Presisdent elect the entirety of his life.

    Sinners are precious in the sight of God is why He chose to send His Son for us all, but they cannot be elect in their state of sin, that would make God the author of sin.

    Logic even explains away Calvinism, and God's ways are "past finding out", so why is it Calvin couldn't define election by simple logic?
     
  16. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Why excuse it? I'm applauding.
     
  17. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    You applaud those going to hell due to their rejecting your Saviour? Heresy!
     
  18. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    I am to assume those who believe in elction are RIGHT, since no one can explain how God's word say he choose people to be his before the creation of the world. how that isn't true that he foreknew. the bible doesn't say he foreknew it say he PICKED and CHOOSE who will be his both Jews and gentiles

     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Got to watch out for that "old Esau man"!
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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