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How Do You Know It's Dynamic Equivalence 2

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Feb 12, 2009.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Rob.This is helpful.

    The above are from verse 14.




    Now these are from verse 15.
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Those are the times when the LXX was inadequate, so the NT writer did his own translation from the Hebrew.
    I believe I showed clearly in my analysis of Matt. 8 that the TNIV did not translate two words in v. 2, and various conjunctions (a lesser problem, since the jury is still out on the koine conjunctions), and also translated a plural as a singular in v. 21. Yes, I have a serious problem with this in the light of the doctrine of verbal plenary inspiration.

    As for my standard, I am not perfect and my standard is not perfect. I have a long way to go in translation studies, the study of the original languages of the NT and many other areas. But no, I don't believe in a perfect translation, especially in Japanese.


    Thank you! This is a start, something we can work with.

    First of all, it is not widely known that Eugene Nida came to believe there should be several translations for each language, not just a DE translation. The NASV is a good example of a solid word-for-word translation.

    I agree with this definition in the area of semantics (meaning). However, in the area of syntax (sentence structure) this definition may work for translating from Greek to English and most other Indo-European languages, but it is inadequate for languages with a wide difference in syntax. A different model is necessary for languages with as different a syntax as Hebrew and English, Greek or Hebrew and Japanese, Greek or Hebrew and Chinese, etc.

    This is where optimal equivalence comes in. Dr. James Price has developed a means of translating into languages with very different syntax by using transformational (also called generational) grammar as a tool. He develops this in his new book, A Theory for Biblical Translation: The Optimal Equivalence Model. Unfortunately, this book is very expense, so I don't have it yet. Fortunately I was privileged to read much of it prior to publication.
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm sorry, this definition is inadequate. It leaves out the very important DE concept of reader response.

    Again, DE is not just "thought for thought" translation. It has definite rules, methods and techniques.

    This very thing is why Nida changed the name of his method to functional equivalence in his book with Jan de Waard (Let the Words Be Written, by Philip Stine, p. 51). People misunderstood his method and thought it was nothing more than the usual thought for thought" (also called "sense for sense"). method.
    What are your criteria for determinining what a DE translation is?
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    There is no such thing known as "gender-equal phraselogy" in the TNIV.[snipped]



    But the point is that the TNIV translators did feel that there are times in the biblical text where male-oriented language is not warranted in translation.

    The policy of the TNIV was about accurate translation into the receptor language of 21st century English-speaking natives.



    No,they shouldn't.If they were faithful to the original texts and improving communication where many older English versions are substandard in this respect -- then they are transmitting with clear fidelity to the original.



    I'm a complementarian.You are not able to find egalitarianism in the TNIV.
     
    #44 Rippon, Feb 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2009
  5. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I saw it coming.

    I knew it was a slippery slope you were on!

    A current 'live' thread. :rolleyes:

    Ed
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    And I was being so careful too.
     
  7. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    A simple degree of difference without being outlandish.
     
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Ahh...

    Yes, I'm not a stickler on conjunctions after reading David Alan Black, et al.

    I believe you would also have a problem with the apostle Paul for his practice of moving from singulars in the Hebrew to plurals in the Greek (Rom 10:15, for a start)

    Thanks you!


    Yes, a solid word-for-word but not always adhering to the word-for-word.

    Fair enough.

    a worthwhile read, I say.
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    A borrowed definition, my friend. :thumbs:

    I'm no expert on the theories. I'm simply a gleaner of sorts.

    But those who are experts, guys like Fee and Strauss, do not consider the TNIV DE.

    I'm not that equipped to disagree with them.

    But from what they have categorized as DE and my ability to read NT Greek, the TNIV does not fit the bill.
     
  11. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    But you left out one of the differences in v. 11 that was discussed in that article posted by JoJ:

    NASB
    11"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;

    TNIV
    I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

    "at the feast" is added and is not in the Greek text.
     
  12. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Why does the TNIV say this in Jn 2.25
    He did not need human testimony about them, for he knew what was in them.


    instead of this (NAS)
    and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.


    They change "in man" to "in them." There is a difference, imo. It changes the emphasis. I think it sounds watered down in the TNIV.

    I think the Greek has "man" not "them." It seems to me the TNIV is trying to not offend women/feminists by saying "them" instead of "man." However, anyone can see that this does not exclude women. I think if the Greek has "man," it should be "man."
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Nope, no problem. According to Gleason Archer and C. C. Chirichigno (Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament: A Complete Survey, p. 119), "But like the LXX, Paul takes the singular participle rè">ab:m
    as a collective, and therefore renders it as a plural, twn euaggelizomenwn. This is perfectly justifiable in the context."
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    A humble admission. :thumbsup:

    Sorry, I don't have their book. But I would like to know what their criteria are for a translation being DE. Do they give criteria, or must we simply trust their opinion?
     
    #54 John of Japan, Feb 15, 2009
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  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Folks, I would like to give a couple of quotes about my belief that the doctrine of verbal plenary inspiration in the original Hebrew and Greek should naturally lead to a literal method of translation. And I once again give the disclaimer that I don't mean that people who translate with the DE method or who read such translations are denying this doctrine.

    First of all, I've mentioned Philip C. Stine's book, Let the Words Be Written. The subtitle is, "The Lasting Influence of Eugene A. Nida." He was a close colleague of Nida. I'd love to have Nida's memoirs, which came out recently, but the price is over $100!! Anyway, here's what Stine wrote:

    "Nida's approach...appeared to challenge the view of Scripture that many translators from conservative theological backgrounds had always held (and many Bible translators came from such backgrounds). Most Bible translators and church leaders would affirm that in some way God provides the ultimate source of the Bible. But many also hold a view of how the Bible expresses that divine source, a view that connects the divine source with actual words and forms. They see God directing in some way the writing and canonization process. For translators who believe that not only were the thoughts of the Bible inspired by God through the Holy Spirit, but also the words themselves, a translation approach such as Nida's contradicts their theology because it puts a premium on the message rather than the form" (Stine, p. 59).

    Again from Stine: "In the translation studies perspective of Bassnett and Lefevere, the Jerome model rests on a particular conviction about the nature of the Bible itself. This conviction, also held by many later translators, asserted that God had inspired the words, idioms, and grammar of Scriptures, so translators should retain these words, idioms and grammar to the maximum degree possible" (p. 159).

    A conservative Bible society, Bibles International, has a standard against using DE in their efforts for this very reason: "Translations produced by Bibles International shall express the very Word of God as literally as possible in the receptor languages without resort to dynamic equivalency and without distorting or obscuring the meaning of the original text" (Anchor Points for Scripture Translation Work, p. 21).
     
  16. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

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    Amen, Sister Marcia! Preach it!

    Anytime any translation, whether the TNIV or any other, departs from what was written and substitutes a gender-inclusive reading, it sacrifices accuracy for "political correctness." What was written should always be translated as accurately as possible - never "watered down" with a gender-inclusive reading. IMO, the TNIV sacrifices accuracy for "political correctness" far too often.
     
  17. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I’ve haven’t studied the TNIV (or the NIV for that matter).
    I’ll eventually look at the translation because of its close relationship to the NIV, which is a popular Bible in the small group study I attend;
    reading aloud in different versions can be confusing at times, particularly for new believers.

    It’s because of what I’ve observed in my small group that I’ve changed my opinions regarding translations.
    I personally enjoy a fairly literal rendering of the text.
    I like to see the structure of the original language.
    But this means at times it doesn’t sound particularly right.
    A literal text sometimes sacrifices its ability to communicate God’s message to the reader.

    I’ve seen the struggles that some have understanding literal, word-for-word texts.
    I’ve seen how practical a dynamic equivalent translation is in helping these readers understand the Scriptures.
    And so I’m beginning to appreciate an even wider range of translations and translational methods as I study through the New Living Translation.


    My opinion of the TNIV is that it is a good general translation but ‘neither hot nor cold’.
    It hasn’t wholly embraced dynamic equivalency but uses it as its translators deemed it necessary.
    John’s done a good job explaining the reasoning behind DE and identifying portions of the text that display it’s effect.
    I think Nida would have liked the TNIVs eclecticism.

    Rob
     
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Hear,hear.I agree!

    It's impossibe,to ask a baby not to cry,it's just impossible!


    BI will never resort to dynamic equivalency?! It's just impossible.

    Also,I thought only those dealing with dynamic equivalency versions use the term "receptor languages".That's why you use the term "target languages".
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    The TNIV has not done anything for PC reasons.That's an old false charge.I'd really like you to face some of the TNIV on a personal basis and tell them the same thing.Your tune would change considerably.

    Your "original" must be the KJV in the English language.If a translation departs from the KJV wording it must be departing from the original [inflammatory wording snipped].
     
    #59 Rippon, Feb 15, 2009
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  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Selections From the Book of Job

    NIV above and HCSB below.

    12:5 : men at ease
    the one who is at ease

    17:8 : Upright men
    The upright

    17:12 : These men
    They

    18:20 : Men of the west
    Those in the west

    19:14 : My kinsmen
    My relatives

    21:25 : Another man
    Yet another person

    31:2 : man's lot
    For what portion would I have

    35:9 : Men cry out
    People cry out

    36:8 : men are
    people are


    Keith M,you have been recommending the HCSB for years as much superior to the TNIV.Have you changed your mind?Do you think the HCSB has watered-down God's Word in these examples?Or do you have no problem with the renderings of the HCSB here?
     
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