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How far should we forget sin?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JRG39402, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. JRG39402

    JRG39402 New Member

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    Um, it will be Saturday in the morning... :)
     
  2. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    I am losing my mind. I never stay up that late. I said something to my wife about church in the morning and she told me I was losingit...LOL

    AJ
     
  3. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Then you have forgiveness and trust confused. Trust is part of the process of restoration.

    This is biblical. I know of cases where someone in the church sins, repents, and then is restored (this concerns certain types of sin that effect others in the church). He/she is restored after a period of time and after initial forgiveness and repentance.
     
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I never said anything about "forgiving in the Spirit." I don't talk that way. I said forgive by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's not our own strenght to do this. We ask God for help and He enables.

    God does not tell us to forget - it is impossible to forget things unless we have amnesia. But we are to forgive.

    Even if those people have not forgiven you for being divorced, you still are supposed to love them. God is the one who enables you to do that. It's not in your own power to do that. But you need to be willing.
     
  5. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    I guess we just dont see this issue in the same way. To me, forgiveness means its done with, over.

    As long as we impose punishment or conditions or limits, then it is not over, and not forgiven. I would say that earning trust is a part of the forgiveness process, and an important one, but true forgiveness is not reached until there is no more desire to hold a person accountable for a sin.

    When I owe the bank money, the debt is not forgiven until it is paid, and at that time it is completely wiped out and finished. That is forgiveness in my mind.

    AJ
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    It's not a matter of how we see it, but how God defines it. Forgiveness has nothing to do with holding someone accountable or not. It means you are not holding the wrong against the person, period.

    When God forgives us, does that mean there are no consequences to our sin? No, of course not. Almost everyone experiences those consequences -- after forgiveness.

    I forgave my son many times when he messed up, but there were still consequences. One of those can be that the person must earn trust back. However, they are forgiven.

    God forgave David of his sin with Bathsheba, but David's son died. This did not mean God did not forgive David.

    I think a study of forgiveness in the Bible might be helpful. It can't be your own ideas; it has to come from God's way.
     
  7. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    God chastises us with righteous authority...we dont have righteous authority. We are not capable of imposing righteous punishment for sins.

    As far as doing a study on forgiveness, the Bible says that when God forgives us he seperates us from our sin as far as the east is from the west and remembers it no more. All I am saying is that we are not capable of Godly forgiveness or chastisement, and that we hold sins against our brothers and sisters long after God has forgiven them.

    Are you suggesting that when we hold people accountable or place conditions and judgements on them long after God has forgiven them, that we are carrying out the will of God?

    AJ
     
  8. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    I have not forgotten the instructions in Matthew 18 that tell us how to handle church discipline, but if you will read that closely, it is talking about an unrepentent sinner that has been given several chances to repent.

    What I am talking about is a person that has fully repented of a sin, and God has forgiven them, but we still cant let go and we hold it against them by placing limitations and conditions on our relationship with them, in some cases refusing to fellowship with them at all.

    Can you show me even one instance where God commands us to discipline or impose limitations on a sinner that has repented?

    (I am aware that pastors are held to a higher standard because of the example they must set 1Tim 3)

    That is not forgiveness

    AJ
     
    #48 ajg1959, Feb 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2009
  9. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    The different standard also applies to elders and deacons. These standards are not designed in order to punish believers but to establish an order that God wants in the Church. If someone wants to serve in a ministry that would make others involved uncomfortable then they would not be very useful in that ministry. Remember God did not let David build the temple because he was a warrior.

    You can extend the right hand of fellowship with someone, but at the same time not feel comfortable about them being in your inner circle of best friends. This has nothing to do with forgiveness.

    The felon who claims that they have "served their time" and the church is not letting them serve in the capacity of their own choosing is merely playing what is equivalent to a "race card". They are claiming unfairness just because they can't do whatever they want or they can not have their way. They may have served "their time" but there is always consequence that remains and forgiveness has nothing to do with releasing the consequence.
     
  10. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    Is it our duty to impose the consquences?

    And how do you define "felon"?

    Are we talking about anyone that has ever commited a felony? Or just the ones that got caught? I know several pastors that will tell you flat out that the only difference between them and some folks serving prison time is that those folks got caught and the pastor didnt. (This would make a great question to pose in a new thread)

    I still say that chastisement and consequences are for God to impose and that we are overstepping our bounds when we try to take His place and execute chastisment ourselves.

    By denying a person the oppurtunity to serve we may actually be going against the will of God. Look at all of the heros and authors in the Bible. Most of them would never be accepted into our modern congregations as equals, but yet God used them in a mighty way.

    When a person has repented and God has forgiven them, it is not our job to keep the "consequences"/chastisement going on and on.

    And yes, there are always people that use their personal circumstances as an excuse to demand what they want, but that doesnt make disqualifying everyone with a blanket policy of rejection right either.

    AJ
     
  11. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I did not say anything about imposting righteous punishment for sins (I did mention disciplining my son, but that's different).

    Re God forgetting sins: The passage you keep referring to is a poetic passage that emphasizes God's forgiveness. It does not mean that God literally forgets our sins. God cannot forget because he's omniscient. Otherwise, this would mean some people would remember their sins (I sure do) but God does not. That makes no sense.

    You seem to be saying it's all or nothing - forgive and let the person immediately be restored to previous positions or else it's not forgiveness.

    Example: A man who is treasurer at church is found to have stolen some of the money. He is confronted and repents. He is forgiven. However, he needs to go through a process of restoration as well. Then it will be up the church as to whether or not he has a position again dealing with money. Forgiving him does not mean that he does not have consequences. One of the consequences may be that he cannot work with money anymore (or maybe he can, depending). This is not a judgment but a precaution and a consequence.

    By forgiving this man, the church is saying: "We do not hold that sin of stealing against you." However, the church may find it prudent not to have him in that position again. He could do it again. Forgiveness does not mean the person won't commit a sin again! Especially if there is a pattern of this sin.
     
  12. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    Yes. if a person has repented and turned from that sin, and God has forgiven them, then yes, it is over.

    And yes, except in places where the Bible says that "such and such is like a such and such" or Jesus is saying that he is telling a parable....yes, i do take the Bible as the literal words that are written. I am not smart enough to try to interpret another meaning out of what is written.

    AJ
     
    #52 ajg1959, Feb 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2009
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    So you would put a repentant pedophile with children?

    Forgiving someone is forgiving them of a past sin or past sins; it does not mean they will not sin again. So if a person has a pattern, you think it's okay to overlook that? That's not forgiveness, that's being foolish. God does not tell us to be fools; in fact, he tells us the opposite.
     
  14. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    No, I wouldnt put him in charge of children.....but I also admit that this is unforgiveness on my part. A pedophile may be completely repentent and forgiven by God and no further threat to children whatsoever, but I still wouldnt trust him, and in this case I am wrong....but I admit I am wrong and dont make excuses for it. I couldnt forgive him, but God can.

    AJ
     
  15. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    Just because someone is forgiven does not mean that they no longer have a weakness that they struggle with. It doesn't mean that it is impossible for them to commit that sin again. Why would you place them in a situation which would be a temptation to do that, and worse yet gamble on a child's welfare and safety? You wouldn't, but it doesn't mean they are not forgiven.
     
  16. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    I have many weaknesses and temptations...maybe I should be put into a cage for the good of the people at large:thumbs:

    AJ
     
  17. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    That is one of the reasons people are placed in prison, so that it is difficult for them to endanger the people around them.
     
  18. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    I have been in prison, some of them are there because we are afraid of them....but most of them are there because we are mad at them.:D
     
  19. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    You didn't say whether the molester had repented from their crime. If so, then God has forgiven them. Why shouldn't we? If we don't, I'd say that they have not been really forgiven. Should we reject those whom God has accepted?
     
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    We're just going to have disagree. You are still tying trust to forgiveness when they are separate.
     
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