How important is free will to you?

Eladar · May 1, 2003

"For many are called, but few are chosen."
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It appears to me that this says that most people resist the call.

By the way, do you assume that the choosing is done before judgement day? It seems to me that the Bible says God will make His decision on the day of the Lord. See 1 Corinthians 4:5.

Frogman · May 2, 2003

first, how can many being called but few chosen be confused with many are called but few choose? Here the one 'calling' is the one who has chosen.

Next, 1 Cor. 4.5 would perhaps read as such if you wish to disregard the fact that it is speaking of the 'stewards' of the faith. these are believers. then shall every man have praise of God, according to the 'hidden things of darkness' that which is found in the recesses of man's heart pertaining to the motives for his service and worship of God.

I see this from the greater context from at least ch. 3 on.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

Eladar · May 2, 2003

first, how can many being called but few chosen be confused with many are called but few choose?
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I am not saying that at all. You are trying to side step the matter. If you really want to understand what I'm saying, then I'd be glad to explain it. If you know what I'm saying and are just trying to "win" an argument, any explanation would be a waste of time and bandwidth.

Frogman · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by Tuor:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />first, how can many being called but few chosen be confused with many are called but few choose?
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I am not saying that at all. You are trying to side step the matter. If you really want to understand what I'm saying, then I'd be glad to explain it. If you know what I'm saying and are just trying to "win" an argument, any explanation would be a waste of time and bandwidth. </font>[/QUOTE]Brother, I do misunderstand your meaning, I still cannot understand how if one is chosen that he/she is able to resist. Having been chosen the individual then knows the unworthiness in which he exists, so then there is no desire to resist.

Please, if you are a mind to, then explain your meaning, if you think it to be beyond my understanding then forget it; but I am not seeking to side step anything. Truth has nothing to sidestep; nor does it fear being disproved.

God Bless.
Bro Dallas Eaton

Eladar · May 2, 2003

It is not beyond you comprehension. I wasn't sure if you knew what I meant or not. I was just trying to clarify before I got too frutstrated.

When you see choose, you automatically think predestination. God chose and He is in control so that is that.

Perhaps there is another way of looking at choose.

If I were to say that I am going to choose two people to do something. Does that mean that I can't have a criterea on which I base my choice?

Does the fact that God chooses who is going to be thrown into the lake of fire and who is going to be allowed into heaven in itself negate the possibility that God could make the decision based on what happens here on earth?

As you can see, this view of choice still has God being the one that makes the decision.

Frogman · May 2, 2003

Brother,

Let me say that I believe God knows the end from the beginning. I believe that if the Bible is true ( and it is ), as I believe you do agree, then for Christ to have died before the foundation of the world would have necessitated much more than the prospect of the possibility of a depraved creature to ever believe such a foolish report. (As reported by the Apostle of the Greeks).

Unfortunately this is all I am able to write at this time, I underwent surgery on my left eye yesterday evening and the computer screen is messing with it and making reading difficult. Please know that I am glad that we are having this discussion as before I think we did not interact quite so cordially. As for now, do not think that I am ignoring you, but only that I am unable to view the monitor.

In closing I would ask you what you would do with Galatians 4.6; (correct me if wrong on the verse or ch.), but it reads something similar to "because ye are sons....

God Bless and have a good night.

Brohter Dallas Eaton

Eladar · May 2, 2003

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
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This does not say, "Because God decided that you are to be His sons He sent forth the Spirit of His Son to you and not others."

It could just as easily mean that the Spirit of His Son is available to all, but only those who are his sons will accept Jesus' spirit into their hearts.

I guess the question here is which came first the chicken or the egg. It seems to me that Paul answers this question in Romans 1:21-24:

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

According to Paul, God gave them over because of their actions. Their actions were not a result of God creating them for that purpose.

Frogman · May 2, 2003

It could just as easily mean that the Spirit of His Son is available to all, but only those who are his sons will accept Jesus' spirit into their hearts.
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It is much closer to agreeing with what I said than it is with this. I am not sure but this appears to be saying nearly the same thing that I have been saying, none who are not his sons (the elect) in eternal sight of God will not accept Jesus' spirit into their hearts. The only reason the 'sons' will is because the Spirit has regenerated them.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

Eladar · May 2, 2003

It is much closer to agreeing with what I said than it is with this.
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I disagree. You are making quite an assumption if you believe Galatians 4:6 is talking about predestination.

Frogman · May 2, 2003

It could just as easily mean that the Spirit of His Son is available to all, but only those who are his sons will accept Jesus' spirit into their hearts.
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Read this again brother. Not only are you opening the door to just 'any' view being imposed on Scripture even from an unregenerated person, but you are actually saying here is that the elect are the only ones who will 'accept' Jesus.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

rufus · May 2, 2003

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
Which would you prefer:

I prefer the following:

Have some men been the specific object of God’s choice; that is, has He chosen them by name?

Answer:

The Arminians maintain that all men have been the object of God’s choice, this choice being contingent upon faith, repentance, and perseverance, all of which in turn are contingent upon the exercise of man’s free will. They insist that election is God’s decree to save all who believe and are godly, and that reprobation is God’s decree to damn all unbelievers and the ungodly, without specifying them by name. They furthermore maintain that God, by virtue of a mediate knowledge, knows who shall and who shall not be willing to believe. As a result of this knowledge God knows who will and who will not be saved.

We maintain, however, that God has chosen a predetermined number of specific individuals by name. He has furthermore decreed to send Christ to be a Mediator to lead them unto salvation. He decreed to call them irresistibly unto Christ, grant them faith and repentance, preserve them by His power, and thus in actuality save them.

This is confirmed by the following proofs.

Proof #1:

It is evident from the word Προοριζειν ( proörizein), that is, to ordain beforehand, which is repeatedly used in reference to election (cf. Rom. 8:29–30; Eph. 1:5, 11). This word means “to ordain someone for a specific purpose.” “For to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done” (Acts 4:28); “Him . . . by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,” etc. (Acts 2:23); “Again, He limiteth a certain day” (Heb. 4:7); He “hath determined . . . the bounds of their habitation” (Acts 17:26). Since God uses this word in reference to election, it therefore pertains to specifically identified individuals who are ordained unto salvation. The same is also expressed by the verb “to elect,” which is the Greek word ἐκλογή ( ekloge). He who takes the whole does not make a choice. To elect is to choose something from among many for oneself according to one’s own pleasure. Since Scripture states that God from eternity has chosen certain men unto salvation, it does not imply that all men are ordained to this salvation, but rather that He has chosen specific individuals unto Himself.

Proof #2:

It is evident from the fact that some names have been written in the book of life. The children of Israel had their genealogies from which they could prove their tribal origin. Likewise God is said to have such a book, which is called the book of life (Rev. 3:5). The names of the reprobate are not recorded in this book. “. . . whose names are not written in the book of life . . .” (Rev. 13:8). Rather, the names of those elected unto salvation are recorded in this book. “But rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven” (Luke 10:20). In Revelation 21:27 it is stated that “they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life” will enter the new Jerusalem. The Father has elected them, written them in His book, and has given them to the Son in order that He might redeem them. He in turn assumed responsibility for them, and has transferred their names into His book, which for this reason is called the “book of the Lamb.” “. . . help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow–labourers, whose names are in the book of life” (Phil. 4:3). It cannot be expressed any more clearly. There is here no mention of any virtue or condition. There is no general reference to evil and good, to believers or unbelievers, but the name of each individual is recorded in the book of life. Those whose names are recorded in this book are mentioned by name, as well as those whose names are not recorded. Thus, election relates to specific individuals.

Proof #3:

This is also evident from the contrast between persons rather than virtues. “. . . many be called, but few chosen” (Mat. 20:16); “. . . the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Rom. 11:7). It is nowhere recorded that God elects or rejects virtues, nor is it stated anywhere that God has elected or rejected individuals with a specific nature. Rather, the reference is always to specific persons. “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13). Even though this may be applied to their descendants, as the descendants of the one were incorporated into the church and those of the other were rejected—even from the administration of the means of grace—the text nevertheless refers to individuals as far as eternal election and rejection is concerned. All of this is evident from the context of this text, for the apostle follows this proposition with a treatise concerning election and rejection. This is also confirmed by those texts which do not mention individuals by name, but which nevertheless use the pronouns “our,” “those,” and “these.” “. . . as He hath chosen us . . .” (Eph. 1:4); “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate . . .” (Rom. 8:29). These words do not refer to virtues, but rather to specific individuals. “The Lord knoweth them that are His” (2 Tim. 2:19).

Objection #1:

If God had chosen specific individuals, their names would have to be recorded in the Bible, which contains the entire counsel of God (Acts 20:27).

Answer:

The names of some are recorded as has been demonstrated. It is sufficient if their names have been recorded in the book of life. As far as the full counsel of God is concerned, Scripture reveals as much as we need to know to believe, to live holily, and to be comforted.

Objection #2:

Since all the promises of God are conditional, then this is also true for election. God’s manner of operation in this time state is consistent with His eternal decree, and if therefore election is conditional, it is neither absolute nor does it relate to specific individuals.

Answer:

We reject this conclusion. There are conditional promises, but it does not necessarily follow that there is a conditional decree of election. The decree is one thing and the administration of the gospel another. It is true that whatever God accomplishes in time He has decreed from eternity. Since He makes conditional promises in time, He consequently decreed from eternity to make conditional promises. This is logical, but it does not follow that therefore election is also conditional.

Objection #3:

If God has decreed such an election which is both absolute and specific, then He would not issue a conditional command to the elect relative to the acquisition of salvation, nor a threat of damnation upon disobedience to this command, which nevertheless does commonly occur in the Word of God.

Answer:

This is not a logical argument. He who has most certainly decreed the end, has also decreed the means whereby He brings the elect to that end. This is the way which God holds before them: faith and repentance. He uses promises and threatenings, which are sanctified by His Spirit, to motivate them towards that end.

Objection #4:

If there was such a thing as an election of specific individuals, the gospel could not be proclaimed to everyone unconditionally, nor could a reprobate be commanded to believe in Christ, with the promise of salvation annexed to it. It would be contradictory not to will someone’s salvation and nevertheless to promise salvation to him if he believes in Christ. Consequently, God has not chosen specific individuals by name.

Answer:

The fact that there is such a specific election has been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. It is equally true that there is an unconditional offer of the gospel, to which the promise of salvation is annexed upon the conditions of faith and repentance. There is no contradiction here, for the one is absolute and the other conditional. The one is a decree, whereas the other is a command. There is a difference between the objective of the worker and the ultimate realization of his work. It is a manifestation of God’s goodness to present the gospel to the unrepentant with a conditional promise, and it is man’s duty to obey that gospel. Election does not prevent the unrepentant from obedience, but rather their own evil nature, and God is thus glorified when He damns them for their own disobedience.

Did election proceed purely from the sovereign good pleasure of God, without any external influence, or was this decree made on the basis of foreseen faith and good works?

Answer:

The latter is the view of many in Roman Catholicism, of Arminians, and of many Lutherans. We do maintain that faith and holiness constitute the way by which God accomplishes the decree of election. They are, however, in no way the moving cause nor the foundation of election which solely and purely proceeds from God’s sovereign good pleasure.
First, this is evident from Scripture’s express declaration that election has no other cause but God’s good pleasure alone.

(1) “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Tim. 1:9). The apostle speaks of persons (us), and not of virtues. He declares that God who saves them grants them eternal glory, and leads them there by means of the calling. He reveals the fountain from which the purpose and the means unto this purpose proceed. He affirms that this is not to be found in works but solely in the purpose and grace of God.

(2) “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; it was said unto her. . . . so then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy” (Rom. 9:11–12, 16). The apostle here refers to two specific individuals, Jacob and Esau, and not to their descendants as if to imply that Jacob’s descendants would constitute the church of God and Esau’s descendants would be deprived of the means of grace. He speaks of these two, considering them not yet born, “neither having done any good or evil.” It is the apostle’s objective to exclude all consideration of works as the moving cause that one person is accepted and the other rejected. He wishes to confirm that God’s purpose according to election is the only origin of election and rejection, and thus the decree is not based on works but originates in the God who calls. From God’s dealings with these two men, the apostle draws the line to God’s dealings with all other men. Thus the reason why someone is appointed for destruction is not to be found in man even though sin is the cause for damnation coming upon them. Likewise, the reason why anyone is prepared unto glory is neither to be found in man, but only in the good pleasure of the Lord (vss. 21, 22). The reason is not to be found in willing nor running, but in the mercy of God.

(3) “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” (Luke 12:32); “Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in Thy sight” (Mat. 11:26); “Having predestinated us . . . according to the good pleasure of His will” (Eph. 1:5); “. . . there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace,” etc. (Rom. 11:5–6). These texts expressly state God’s good pleasure and His sovereign grace to be the origin of election unto salvation, excluding all other things, particularly all works.
Faith, good works, and the perseverance in both of these do not originate in man himself, but in God. They proceed from eternal election. Consequently, election is not based on faith, good works, and perseverance. We will subsequently demonstrate in chapters 31 and 32 that these matters do not proceed from man himself.

That election is not the result of faith, but faith the result of election, is evident from what follows.

“For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified” (Rom. 8:29–30). Here the apostle posits election as being unto glory and grace, unto glory as the ultimate end, and unto the benefits as means whereby this ordained glory is obtained.

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rufus

Eladar · May 2, 2003

Not only are you opening the door to just 'any' view being imposed on Scripture even from an unregenerated person
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Any view can be imposed on Scripture. God has given us that right. What we say the scripture means has nothing to do with reality. Sure we can be right, but we are not the one making it right. We just happen believe correctly. In the same way, what we believe could be wrong. We believe it is right, but we could just blind.

That is just the way it is.

, but you are actually saying here is that the elect are the only ones who will 'accept' Jesus.
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I guess that all depends on your definition of 'accept' Jesus. According to Paul there are those who show that they have God's righteousness written in their hearts without actually hearing God's truth. They will be found righteous because it is not those who hear the truth, but those who demonstrate the truth in their lives that will be saved.

romanbear · May 2, 2003

Hi Ken;
Actually you got it wrong. All those who wait around for God to elect them and save them with out making the decision to follow Christ,with out the faith, without the believing in him, and going there own way till they're born again with out repentance, are lost. Being saved is born again they mean the same thing. You cannot be born again untill you have faith in Christ and repent.

If we are regenerated as Calvinist claim then what would be the use of faith. there is none, because they believe that once you are born again you will never be lost. How convient!!!! We don't even have to believe. Now I ask, is this Biblical, no this is Calvinism. So is said, but actually this isn't true Calvinism this is Bezaism.We are all just programed to be Christians. We have no choice
So much for predestination.or should I say preprogramed

BobRyan · May 2, 2003

How Important is Free Will to GOD??

When God created Lucifer with FREE WILL He knew it would cost him 1/3 of the Angels.

When God ALLOWED Lucifer to THINK his first thought of rebellion instead of altering that current of thought JUST SLIGHTLY so that Lucifer would NEVER KNOW his mind had been tampered with - God was "sacrificing" for free will.

When God ALLOWED Eve to wander to the tree alone instead of "tampering" with her mind and keeping her next to Adam - he was going to pay the price of the loss of BOTH Adam and Eve.

When God ALLOWED Adam to CHOOSE to join Eve - He knew it would COST Him His Son to ALLOW that FREE WILL CHOICE.

When God ALLOWED the Jewish people to REJECT their OWN Messiah He cried out "O Jerusalem Jerusalem who KILLS those sent to her ... HOW I WANTED to save your children... BUT YOU would not". Matt 23.

At each step - it COST God to "ESTABLISH" and MAINTAIN free will.

In Christ,

Bob

[ May 03, 2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

Frogman · May 2, 2003

Even in the sovereign choice to give man a free-will God is found to not be sovereign. It was the urge to 'dethrone' God that rose up in the heart of Lucifer that led to iniquity being found in his heart; Lucifer/Satan/the serpent then used this same urge found in man to 'be as God' to deceive Eve.

Yet man is still determined to be as God and effect his own deliverance.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

romanbear · May 2, 2003

Hi Frogman;
Don't cry I'm praying for ya. Soon God will enlighten you and you will be full of understanding. Cheer up, debate and challenges to your faith is good for the soul. Just think you might learn truth.
Romanbear

Frogman · May 2, 2003

Truth welcomes scrutiny.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

Ray Berrian · May 3, 2003

Bob Ryan,

Your post "When God allowed . . ." was true to Scripture and that is why it was excellent.

Why did God the angel and humans to use a free will? I don't think we will fully know until we get to Heaven. But, then what value would have there been if He pre-programmed every human soul to worship Him. Even God would view this a being manipulative or totally sovereign. The thing is that He was totally sovereign by allowing the angel and people to make their God-given choice.

Did He not give the Laodocean Church a choice to either return to Him or to apostatize? [Revelation 3:20]

BobRyan · May 3, 2003

Ray - you are correct. God was the one who first sovereignly "chose" to ordain, sustain and maintain free will at great cost to Himself.

The question is not how much do WE value free will - it is what does scripture tell us about how much GOD values HIS OWN sovereign choice to GIVE us free will.

As you point out - simply making a robot is "nothing" but creating intelligent beings with free will to choose - and to have them choose to worship the one true God - now that is something.

In Christ,

Bob

Frogman · May 3, 2003

Did He not give the Laodocean Church a choice to either return to Him or to apostatize? [Revelation 3:20]
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Is there no distinction by men between the lost and the children of God? It is no wonder our churches are filling with people who are suffering through afflictions. All are considered to be born children of God, though the Bible distinctly declares even the saved are redeemed from among the numbers of the children of disobedience and were then partakers of the same nature.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

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