How important is knowledge in getting saved?

Eliyahu,

bmerr here. The knowledge required for one to be saved can be found in the very first gospel sermon ever preached (Acts 2:21-36), which teaches the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and our guilt in bringing it about, and in Peter's instructions to those who believed his message concerning how to respond to it (Acts 2:37-38).

People of all times have been saved, either eternally, or from enemies, or diseases, etc, by doing what God told them to do. OT saints certainly looked for and hoped in the promise of a Redeemer Who would atone for their sins. Even Job, before the Law of Moses hoped in the promised Christ (Job 19:25).

Concerning works, neither works of the Law (Rom 3:23), nor works of our own righteousness, or merit (Titus 3:5) have ever gained anyone the salvation offered by God. However, the Bible is clear that some works are required for our justification (James 2:24; Acts 10:35). Works of obedience are the only kind of works that can fit the bill, being neither works of the Law, nor works of merit, yet complying with the fact that Jesus only saves those who obey Him (Heb 5:8-9).

The reason Jesus said what He did in Luke 16:31 is that the OT was sufficient to lead any honest person to recognize the Savior (Gal 3:24), and if one would not believe God's word, they wouldn't be persuaded by anything, even one rising from the dead.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

bmerr, I have plenty of evidence from Bible, that no serious knowledge is required for the salvation. Peter was called by Jesus and followed Him deserting everything behind, John deserted everything and his father behind. do you have such faith? Did they need a lot of theological study for deciding that ?
Did Paul have a lot of information about Lord Jesus before he was saved on the road to Damascus?
What does Lord Jesus say?
Brokenhearted, meek minded, humble people will see the kingdom of God . Read His mount sermon.

Lofty minded people with lots of knowledge can hardly be saved.
Read the whole chapter of Acts 4

 

I think the difference is, Eliyahu, is that we believe that a person must have a basic knowledge of the gospel in order that he may call on the name of the Lord and be saved. At least I hope that you believe that on must have at least that much knowledge.

Bmerr believes that one must be "born again and again and again," so to speak. Thus knoledge is accumulative since one must always act on the knowledge that he has every time he loses his salvation.

 

GE:

Thanks, Eliyahu, for encouraging words of truth --- words of saving knowledge.

 

Blessed are the poor in spirit, rich in Christ. That I may be a fool for Jesus!

 

Yes, you are correct.
That's why I mentioned, one doesn't need MUCH knowledge about the truth for the salvation.

One must know that Jesus is Lord, He is the Son of God, He has the power to forgive the sins, the person himself or herself is a sinner, Sinner must pay the price for his or her own sin but cannot do anything to satisfy God ( Rom 3:20-23), then Jesus came to Calvary where we should be put to death, but Jesus died in our stead, which redeemed us from our sins. We live no longer but Jesus lives in us.
I think this knowledge and truth is not very much amount. The Gospel is very simple for everybody, and everyone in the world can accept Jesus as Lord so simply. The blind man was saved ( John 9 :35-38), the Samaria woman was saved. I don't think they had very much knowledge. The Jailor in Philippi and his family ( Acts 16:30-33) were baptized in one night. I don't think Paul taught them very much knowledge, or they had much theological knowledge. The Jailor asked this question:

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved? " ( Acts 16:30)
Paul and Sila answered, " Believe on the Lord Jesus christ, and thou shall be saved, and thy house" ( Acts 16:31)

Did Paul say, " you must know this and that, ?"

Here, what we must avoid are :
- Salvation by Grace+ Works ( need a good effort in addition to grace)
- Continue to do a good works so as not to lose faith and the salvation.
( NKJV reflect this concern and therefore it translate 1 John 5:13, " continue to believe in the name of the Son of God" )

I thank God for giving the Salvation to everyone Free in the simple way.


We must distinguish between Salvation and Sanctification. The Sanctification takes place continuously and we need a lot of effort continuously in the daily life even including Word Study, but that is the matter after the Salvation, for the spiritual growth.

DHX, I hope you understand my point, as I trust you in almost all the issues ( As for Sabbath, I am generous to both parties, Oh, I shouldn't go off the topics!), and have enjoyed your posts very much, thanks!

 

Eli-
I think there are many points that you made that are valid, however, you may be missing some realities.

Who is Jesus to a person who only heard a little true and false of him? (this may take some time to answer)

Oh he's in the bible, well I don't believe in the bible. (now what?)

Alright, maybe some one believes some of the bible is true (now theres another issue!)

What is sin, that an almighty Creater would be concerned with?

Get my point.

Each item that you compiled is loaded depending on the recipient oftthe "gospel" you preach. Not everyone has a true knowledeg of what sin is in their own lives. You may "convert" a person that thinks that killing is wrong, but not be willing to give up all anger against those who hurt them. They may also feel that having sexual relations with one person while wishing to be married is ok with God as long as his heart is in the right place.

Remember, the Rich Man wasn't preached on what he knew about, rather he was challenged to repent of his love for wealth and then follow Christ.

Please understand that I am not saying that people must give up all their money before coming to Christ, but I can't help but recognized that when calling people to give up everything to follow Him, Jesus always got at the heart of their main desire.

I think all scriptures is great, However, I also recognize who was the speaker and who was the audience (people who were familiar with the coming of the messiah)

 

Eliyahu,

bmerr here. I agree. One needs to know what those in Peter's audience knew:

1. Jesus had been shown to be the Son of God by many miracles, and by His having been raised from the dead.

2. Their actions were responsible for the death of the Messiah.

3. Having believed the gospel message, they needed to know how to call on the name of the Lord and be saved, which caused them to ask, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" They were commanded to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

I wouldn't say that's a lot of deep theological knowledge, would you?

Well, we can't be sure how much they knew about Jesus and the prophecies concerning the Messiah when Jesus called them to follow Him. Maybe they knew a lot, maybe they didn't. There's just no way to be sure.

Additionally, before Jesus' death, the Old Testament, the Mosaic Law, was still in effect, and Jesus could save anyone under whatever conditions He chose (John 5:26). Life was His to give to whomever He wanted, however He chose.

Since the death of Christ, and the establishment of the church/kingdom in Acts 2, the New Testament has been in effect, and all men since that time till the end of time are amenable to the conditions of it.

Using OT conversions to make a point bout NT conversions doesn't work.

Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus? If he was, he was saved while still in his sins, never having heard what he "must do" (Acts 9:6).

If we look at the account of Paul's conversion in Acts 9, we will not find where he is told to "do" anything, as Christ said he would be (9:6). But if we look in Paul's retelling of the occasion in Acts 22:16, we see that he was told to "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord".

This is three days after he had believed in the risen Christ and repented of going about killing Christians (Acts 9:9).

Paul wasn't saved on the road to Damascus, Eli.

Brokenhearted, meek-minded, humble people will obey the commands of their King, and receive the associated blessings.

I'm sorry if you think I'm being snooty. I'm not trying to be. But it is one's knowledge of the truth that will set him free (John 8:32). We are commanded to study (2 tim 2:15), and we are supposed to grow in knowledge (2 Pet 3:18).

In Christ,

bmerr

 

What they knew is irrelevant.
If I had the opportunity to preach the gospel in a seminary of Roman Catholic priests who had been studying the Bible along with all their other doctrines I would take it. They might have quite a bit of knowledge of the Bible, but they all might be unsaved. Knowledge does not equate to salvation or much knowledge is not is not a prerequisite for salvation.

These were Jews that gathered on the Day of Pentecost. Most of them had been studying the Bible all of their lives. Remeber that in Acts 8 Philip to the Book of Isaiah and at the same Scripture preached unto him Jesus. In his sermon Peter preached the gospel using Joel, Psalms, and other OT scripture. The Jews were well acquainted with the Scripture, who the Messiah was; that they themselves had crucified the Messiah that came and revealed Himself to them while he was yet in the flesh, and now had risen from the dead, of whom they were witnesses. What a powerful witness Peter and the apostles had. And now these tongues, according to Isaiah 28:11,12 were a sign to them that their message was of God. The Jews knew all these things. They had a tremendous background in the Bible. Did they need all that background. No they didn't. But they had it anyway. They had much light. They were without excuse.

 

I don't think you will have a similar Preaching field as Peter did at all. But Catholic are not ignorant of your teachings, so I don't think this comparison work.

I agree....

This is YOUR opinion. The fact is, as prophesied, their back ground aided in the preaching of the Gospel. If they had not ANY knowledge or little, well, Peter's message would have been a bit more detailed with respect to teaching what is a Christ vs Who was the Christ. Everyone will not respond like the Jews did in Acts 2, because, not everyone knew what they knew.

Some are met differently like the Ethiopian Acts 8. What he learned brought him to complete faith. If he hadn't learned anything and made the wrong choices from what he learned, then I'm sure Phil would not have baptized him.

 

The Ethiopian Eunuch was one of those Jews. He went to Jerusalem to be their for the feast of Pentecost. He was a proselyte to the Jewish faith. He also had much knowledge of the Bible. The same was true of Cornelius. These were Gentiles, but they were Gentile converts to the Jewish faith.
We have the same parallels in the OT. Rahab and Ruth both were outside of Israel and converted to Judaism, and also came to be (through the providence of God) put in the direct ancestry of the Lord Jesus Christ. They acted on the light that they had according to the testimony of Israel.

There is not a great deal of knowledge required for salvation. A simple gospel presentation is all that is necessary.

 

agreed he had knowledge, and it should be noted that Philip taught him from his based knowledge about the Lord.

I think to most of us this "knowledge" is basic, however, depending on your audience, it may take more work through scripture to truely teach people who may choose to follow Christ how to accept the Gospel. Believing what is said is one thing, but living it is another (should be both).

Jesus encouraged Disciples to Count the Cost of following him:

Luke 23:"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. 25What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? 26If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Should a person not have this understanding ready to accept it before coming to Christ?

or What about this...

Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
28"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.

 

The most thorough discourse that Jesus gave concerning salvation was with Nicodemus, explaining to him how to be born again. And that was a very simple message.
Paul explains the message of salvation in four verses (1Cor.15:1-4) "by the which ye are saved."

Almost all of the Scripture that you quote above does not refer to salvation at all, but rather to discipleship. That is, what a Christian must do if he is willing to "count the cost" and follow Christ after he becomes a Christian. Becoming saved is one thing; becoming a disciple is quite another.

 

The knowledge which may function in the process of the salvation may differ depending on the audience or the listeners.
For the sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes, Jesus didn't have to shout " You are the sinners! and hypocrites!" because they knew already that they themselves were sinners. But to the Pharisees and Saducees, Jesus condemned them " Ye are the hypocrites!"
The scribes and Jewish elders who knew very much about the Bible, the Words of God, couldn't accept Jesus as their Lord.
The spiritual and godly knowledge which help the people to be saved may come from the brokenhearted mind, obedience to God, Fearing God, true repentence to depart from this worldly passion and from adulterous desire, esteeming the heavenly blessings better than any earthly pleasures.

These types of Repentence and meditation may have been formed in the minds of the saved people in their daily lives even before they actually found their Lord.

Basically, we need nothing from us, to be saved. simply we accept what Jesus has done, as Paul and Sila preached in Acts 16:30-31. This is why our faith of Christianity is so much gracious and precious.

 

I hope the most of my stance have been understood by you.
But on this subject, I would like to tell you that Paul was saved on the road to Damascus or just around that time.

Acts 9:17
Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

He must have been saved at that time or before that.
The most important event on this conversion is this:

Acts 9:5-6
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Many modern versions omit this portion of the verses. ( underlined part)

Paul was " Trembling and Astonished", which is a typical response when the Holy Spirit works in someone's mind. Paul was calling Jesus " Lord" ( despite that he realized the person was Jesus whom he was persecuting!) then he was almost ready to accept the commandment from Him. Also, normally God doesn't appear to the unbelievers, but Jesus appeared to Paul when He saved him.
From verse 5 thru 17 of ch 9, we can say that, Paul was saved on verse 6, or at least he was under the custody of the Holy Spirit, completely broken hearted.
If we read Acts 26:13-18, we can notice Paul received this great commandment of missionary at that time or just about that time. Paul showed the enormous reaction to the calling by Jesus, which was typical when the Holy Spirit visits the sinners.

I feel you may be focussing on the knowledge of the person for the contribution of the salvation, while I am rather focusing on the repentance, broken heartedness, fearing God, obedience to Him.

In our reality of the evangelism, the knowledge without repentance means nothing. Knowledge may lift up the person, but the humbleness will lead to the salvation.

Please note John 8:32 means "Knowing Jesus" which is again related to the repentance and obedience to God, Peter was talking about the spiritual growth after salvation. For the spiritual growth, we need a lot of effort throughout the life, we need a lot of knowledge throughout our lives for the growth and for the sanctification.

 

DHK,

bmerr here. They would likely be far more versed in RC doctrine than in the Bible. RC's aren't known for being very dilligent Bible students.

And there's really no "might" about their being unsaved. That much is certain. According to the Scriptures, the majority of what is known as "Christendom" has knowledge and is active, yet is still lost (Matt 7:21-23).

I agree that there is not much knowledge required for one to be saved. But I think you would agree that some knowledge is required, since it is one's knowledge of the truth that will set them free (John 8:32).

Agreed that the Jews knew enough Scripture that they should have been able to recognize Jesus as the Messiah, yet, because the religious leaders were more devoted to their own traditions and their position than to the word of God, most of the people missed it.

But the knowledge they had, combined with someone preaching the truth, resulted in 3000 obeying the gospel after the very first presentation of the gospel.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Jesus Said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

All of Jesus' teaching to His disciples were to help them "MAKE" disciples of those who desired to have Jesus in their life.

• Make Disciples (teach people about believing in Jesus by giving their life to him)
• Baptize - those people for the forgiveness of their sins
• And Teach them everything commanded

It seems to me Jesus want it all at salvation not one part and then the other.

This is also based on the fact that many people get "SAVED" so to speak and never intened on Making Jesus Lord which IS DISCIPLESHIP. Giving all areas of their life to Him....

Jesus said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?

Do you really believe that Jesus is looking for people to "get saved" and then struggle with rather or not all areas of their life will be submitted to Jesus?

Or, Jesus lays all the cards on the table and then with a clear understanding a person knows that EVERY aspect of his/her life will be directed by Christ, then enter into His covenant of salvation?

 

Eliyahu,

bmerr here. You'll still have to explain how Paul was saved, and yet still in his sins. By the time Ananias came to him Paul had been fasting and praying for three days (Acts 9:9). Remember that Jesus had told Paul that he would be told what he "must do" in 9:6. It is not until Paul's recounting of his conversion in Acts 22 that we learn the only thing he was commanded to do, which was to "Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

If Paul was still in his sins, three days after his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, then he was not yet saved.

Why do you say that?

Is there a certain Scripture that led you to this conclusion? How does the Holy Spirit "work in someone's mind"? Are you meaning He works directly on the mind of Man, or that He works through the Word?

Many have and will call Jesus "Lord", and yet be lost (Matt 7:21-23). It is useless to call Jesus "Lord", and not do what He says (Luke 6:46). Jesus did not tell Paul what he "must do" on the road to Damascus, but sent him into the city where a man (Ananias) would tell him what he "must do".

Agreed that God does not normally appear to men, whether saved or lost, but when Jesus appeared to Paul, He did not save him, he told him to go into the city to be told what he "must do" to be saved. You do realize that's what Paul was asking, don't you?

And what is your source for the "under the custody of the Holy Spirit" comment? I know of no Biblical support for such a thing.

Yes, when we combine the accounts in Acts 9, 22, and 26, we can get a more complete view of all that was said and done surrounding the conversion and commissioning of Paul, the "whole council of God" on the subject. Still, the only thing Paul was commanded to do was to be baptized and wash away his sins.

How does the Holy Spirit "visit the sinners"?

True repentance, humility, fear of God, and obedience to Him only come as a result of hearing and believing the word of God.

Agreed that knowledge apart from corresponding actions is unprofitable. So are religious actions apart from knowledge of God's word. One can't do God's will without knowing God's will.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

The only reason that you take this stance on Paul's salvation is that you believe in the heresy of baptismal regeneration--that baptism is necessary for salvation. Otherwise you would not have to pervert the Scriptures so. It is plain that when Paul addressed Christ as Lord that he was saved at that time.

 

Most definitely the Great Commission includes both salvation and discipleship. Today the churches are weak in the area of discipleship; often going out "soulwinning," and then leaving the person out to dry. That is a shame. Nevertheless there is a differennce between slavation and discipleship. One does not have to become a disciple to become a Christian.
The requirement to become a Christian is not:
"Deny yourself, take up your cross daily and then follow Christ;
It is not:
hate you father, mother, brother, sister.
It is not:
lose your life.
It is not:
putting your hand to the plow and not turning back.
It is not:
Crucifying yourself to Christ.

It is not any of the above.
It is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and be saved.
It is to call on the name of the Lord and be saved.

It is a simple mesage that Christ died, and was buried and rose again for the penalty of your sins. Why? Because you are a sinner in need a Saviour, and Christ paid the penalty for that sin through his death and resurrection.
It is a simple message, not a message of works which you are making it out to be by adding conditions of discipleship to salvation.