1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured How much did the Reformation reform?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ntchristian, Jan 29, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    66
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Growing up in Eastern Orthodoxy, where I lived, we were in the minority. We were surrounded by Roman Catholicism. There were not that many Protestant churches around. So I came to know a lot about the Roman Catholic Church and how it differed from us. But I did not know a lot about Protestantism until I engaged in an in-depth study of it. I recognized how the Reformation changed Protestant beliefs in contrast to the RCC which it came out of. In that sense, Protestantism was indeed a rebellion from and reformation from Roman Catholicism, but not from Eastern Orthodoxy since the Protestant reformers did not come out of Orthodoxy.

    Now what I'm about to say may shock many of you and find you in disbelief or denial of it, but this is what I found. Protestantism, while seeking to return to more Biblical/ancient doctrines and practices, still held and holds to basic premises that Roman Catholicism holds. Protestantism, just like Roman Catholicism, holds to an Augustinian soteriology, unlike Orthodoxy. Further, Protestant atonement theories are just expansions of Roman Catholic atonement theory, which are neither ancient nor Biblical, and neither is Augustinian soteriology.

    So, in basic ideas of salvation, both Roman Catholic and Protestant (including Baptist) views are akin. These are different from Orthodoxy. Another specific difference is in the doctrine of justification. I will include a link to an article which is good at highlighting these differing views: Justification (theology) - Wikipedia

    One big problem I am having in converting to Protestantism, and Baptists, is in this area of soteriology. In all my studies, I did find something astonishing, and I found it almost by accident. In reading about the Reformation, I stumbled on the Radical Reformation, and in those radicals I found a soteriology very close in some important aspects to Orthodox soteriology. And yet the Radical Reformers in other aspects were seemingly almost totally opposite to Orthodoxy. This has led me to study of the offspring of the Radical Refomers such as the Mennonites, Brethren, and Quakers (Friends).

    All of this is fascinating and intriguing to me. I'll be glad to see comments from all who care to respond to my thread. I hope we can have a good discussion of this. I am glad to have found this forum. Your comments and responses are really making me think.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,431
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually, the reformers did indeed unstand the Sotierology of the scriptures, especially Pauline Justification, my biggest complaints with them would be did not reformed enough their views on the sacraments and eschatology!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,312
    Likes Received:
    391
    Faith:
    Baptist
    RCC - water baptism = salvation, rebirth, being born-again. Even baptism with water while the child is in the womb!

    Baptist - believers baptism to show-forth the result of being born-again through repentance and accepting Jesus as savior.

    Eastern Orthodoxy - ???
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,431
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do not believe that they hold to saved by Grace alone thru faith alone.
     
  5. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Salvation by faith alone was the "theological novum" invented by the progenitors of the various Protestant religions.


    James 2:24 ---> "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,431
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Both the Greek and Roan Church really misunderstand what James meant there "Justified by works"
    Calvin had this right, as he saw that one was indeed saved by Grace alone thru faith alone, but real saving faith is not alone, as salvation will produce in the redeemed now good works!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    FYI, the Orthodox Church condemned both the Lutherans and Calvinists at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 A.D.
     
  8. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    James 2:24 ---> "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."


    Does Scripture (above) say faith alone is salvific? Yes or no?

    If you believe the answer is yes, faith alone is salvific, then you must believe a dead faith, that is one apart from ANY works, is a salvific one. This again would contradict the explicit words of Scriptures.

    James 2:26 ---> "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,431
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How about the Church of Rome?
     
  10. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your conclusion is wrong. Paul lays it out in Ephesians 2:8-10.
    By Grace you are saved.
    Through faith, that comes not from yourself, but is God's gift
    That you will carry out the works God has ordained for you.
    James agrees with this when he argues against people who claim to have faith, but no works are evident. Therefore he states that faith, without works is dead, which Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 when he says the unsaved are dead in their trespasses and sins. No dead man can produce faith. God must make them alive and give them faith that, by the nature of the gift, produces good works.

    This is elementary stuff, yet you seem to stumble over it and imagine you are the cause of faith and good works, which is clearly contrary to scripture.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    66
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    If you believe that Luther thought James taught the same as Paul on this, then why did he wish that James was not included in the NT?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ask Luther.

    I see the congruity of the scriptures and both Paul and James are expressing God's work in the gift of faith.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    66
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    But James says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Taken literally, that denies justification by faith alone, does it not?
     
  14. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John Piper says it well.
    https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/does-james-contradict-paul
     
  15. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I'm sorry...I didn't realize we were still playing "Who can build the biggest straw man?"

    I guess it's my turn so here I go...

    ---> This is elementary stuff, yet you seem to stumble over it and imagine you and Baal are the cause of faith and good works, which is clearly contrary to Scripture.

    Your turn. This is so much fun!
     
  16. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My goodness you have no clue. I specifically answered and because you have no reply you claim the nebulous strawman.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,431
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That sort of theology is what spawned the reformation!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,431
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Faith:
    Baptist
    he misunderstand what Paul and James were teaching?
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,431
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, for Paul address Justification from [menbers idea of] God's perspective, and James describes what that looks like in practical terms in our lives!
     
    #19 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2020
  20. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2019
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    66
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I appreciate all the excellent comments, but it still seems to me that Paul and James disagree. In interpreting scripture, I tend to read things literally and first take the literal sense of a passage. I have also observed that different denominations interpret passages literally when it suits their doctrines and explain away the literal rendering when it doesn't. All denominations do this.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...