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Featured How much did the Reformation reform?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ntchristian, Jan 29, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul once felt that human efforts and his works made him merit his place with God, but once he saw the risen Christ, all of that to Him was Dung. that would mean not much help at all....
     
  2. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Why is the exact phrase important to you?
    Moreso, the connection between James and Paul regarding salvation by grace, through faith has been explained. At this point it seems you are being willfully ignorant of what God has declared and instead demand only exact phraseology for something to be true.
     
  3. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    All of scripture should and will be my guide. Still, in this case I find the statement of James clear and straightforward. I'll think more and study more on it, though.
     
  4. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    I like what you said. I can see the sense of it.
     
  5. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    Maybe not, but I am still searching.
     
  6. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    The phrase is important because earlier in this thread I stated the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

    Several posters, including yourself, then asserted that St. Paul and St. James must be in contradiction to one another based on the presumption that St. Paul taught that man is in fact saved by faith alone. Here are a few examples...

    --> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/#post-2565336

    --> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/#post-2565675

    --> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-2#post-2565710

    --> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-2#post-2565760

    --> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-3#post-2566010


    Thus, in order for there to be an actual contradiction, one would need to demonstrate that St. Paul taught man is saved by faith alone. Hence I am still waiting for that verse(s).

    (Spoiler alert: The verse(s) will NEVER be posted because St. Paul NEVER taught sola fide. It was an invention of the progenitors of Protestantism.)
     
  7. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    I never declared that Paul and James were in contradiction. Second, why would salvation by faith alone bother you? Why would you want it to be by faith plus works?
    Ephesians 2:1-10 lays out the process God uses to save a person. Why would I try to change the process so I could boast in my works?
     
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  8. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    That's good to read.

    Because it is not true, that's why. It's a lie perpetuated as if it is a tenet of Christianity. It would be like me using this verse of St. Paul's to the faithful at Rome...

    "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" (Romans 8:24)

    ...to start claiming that St. Paul taught we are saved by HOPE ALONE. That, of course, would not be true.


    And nowhere in Ephesians 2:1-10 does St. Paul say we are saved by faith alone. In fact in verse 10, he explicitly states God has ordained those in Christ to do good works. Hence to say that those in Christ have faith apart from good works, i.e. faith alone, would be contrary to the very words of St. Paul.
     
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  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    We say what Ephesians says:

    [Eph 2:4-5 NIV] 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
    • While we were dead in sin,
    • God made us alive, (saved)
    • Because of God’s great love (not because of our works).

    [Eph 2:8-9 NIV] 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
    • No man has a reason to boast,
    • Because our salvation is a gift of God.
    • Our faith is a gift of God.
    • The grace (unmerited favor) shown us is a gift from God.
    • We are NOT SAVED by our works.

    [Eph 2:10 NIV] 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
    • We are God’s handiwork (it is God who has made a new thing)
    • We are created anew in Christ Jesus.
    • We now live, in Christ, as a new man to do good works.
    • God has prepared in advance (preordained) the specific good works that we are to walk in.

    NONE of this applies to those whom God has not made alive, who have not received the gift of ‘salvation by grace through faith’, are not God’s handiwork or in Christ, and do not have good works prepared in advance, by God, to walk in. Those people have what James calls a “dead faith” that cannot save anyone, or a mind as described in Romans 1 that God has given over to every sinful desire.
     
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  10. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    If you assist God in your salvation do you have cause to boast? I say that you do have cause to boast in your effort of assistance.
    As for Romans 8:24, you show how you ignore the context to create a false assertion. Read the context and let me know what Paul is saying.

    What we see in Ephesians 2 is this:

    Finally, no one says that faith does not produce good works. We state that faith causes good works. The effect of faith is good works.
    You cannot flip that around. You cannot claim that good works cause faith and faith is an effect of good works. That would be a lie. But, faith does cause the effect of good works. That is truth. That is exactly what both Paul and James are saying.
    However, you are claiming that both faith and good works are causes which synchronously create the effect of salvation. That cannot be true. Why? Because the unredeemed person cannot have faith and cannot have works God considers good. In the case of both faith and good works, God must first choose to redeem that person and give them faith, which begets good works. God must...make the person alive with Christ before faith can be given by God's grace.
    As atpollard rightly stated, you are attempting to put the cart before the horse. What you are doing is biblically incorrect. You lessen the work of God to glorify the imagined work of man.
     
  11. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    ”Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    How much did the Reformation reform? The answer is simple (undeniable to any Baptist)....not enough.
     
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  13. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    I certainly agree with that. And even the Baptists, at least the Particular-infulenced branch, still follows Augustinian soteriology which is not what the early Christians believed.
     
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  14. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Which is why there are already thousands of Christian sects out there. If a couple of hundred more were to form, would the "truth" finally be found?
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think the truth is found in all of them. The Reformation was necessary (the RCC itself had become un-Christian and was never on strong ground to begin with).
     
  16. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    The early Christians were neither Eastern Orthodox nor Roman Catholic.
    The Particular Baptists follow the teaching of scripture. If Augustine spoke scripture, he is worth listening to. If others speak scripture, they are worth listening to.
    If people speak of human action as the cause which effects God's reaction, those people are not speaking scripture. Therefore it is evident that the EOC and the RCC have ignored scripture and glorified human tradition. They have lifted up human action and minimized God's grace.
    Let God be true and every man a liar.
     
  17. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    I understand the purpose of the Protestant Reformation was to address and bring about changes in the RCC. That being the case, it was a total failure.
     
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'd argue that the resulting theology was too much an amalgamation of RCC doctrine and Scripture. Rather than trying to reform the RCC they should have looked more to Scripture than they did (not to reform but to build).
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No kidding. Your Strawman is God saved under motivation of a person's MERIT. According to PAUL he was saved for being ignorant, not because he had faith or worked.

    WHY God saves anyone = What you have to do. Very big brain there.....I bet your a Calvinist.


    20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

    Who is the foolish fellow? HINT: its not the guy who thinks faith without works is useless.

    Give us ONE example of someone who says FAITH without works is USEFUL.

    NAME ONE PERSON. I CAN NAME MILLIONS.

    You won't find him. Because he is hiding behind the mirror.


    James 2

    26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    Faith to Body. Works to spirit.

    Body without spirit = dead

    Faith without work = dead.


    If it all hinges on the BODY = FAITH. why don't you pile up all your BODIES without SPIRIT. in front your church and lets what all that faith does.

    It useless and worthless. You can have thousands of people measuring their faith with each other pertaining to thousands of different religions. Men with faith in might as well be demons and devils. Evil people that they call GOD and they do it with great faith.

    Scripture says FAITH is not the factor between right and wrong. It tells us plainly in 1 Corinthians 13

    1 Corinthians 13

    2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.



    You guys have the EASIEST way to prove your position true. It is a NO BRAINER. Only and IDIOT cannot compute this.

    Show us the guy who is saved who HATES GOD and HATES HIS NEIGHBOR.

    Maybe you personally HATED GOD and Neighbor when you were saved. SAY SO and you will have PROVEN without a DOUBT that GOOD WORKS are not required.
     
  20. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    I have to agree mostly with that.
     
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