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How much of the Bible is necessary?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by MikeS, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. Harley4Him

    Harley4Him New Member

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    Jim, how can the earliest Christians have oodles of copies of the NT scriptures floating around if they weren't even written yet?
     
  2. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Jim,

    The consensus among Biblical scholars is that the first epistle to have been penned was Paul's first epistle to the Thessalonians, dated at 51 A.D. The Didache, which was considered Scripture by many early Christian Churches, is dated by some scholars at 49 A.D., but - if I may presume - you do not consider the Didache to be New Testament Scripture.. for what reason?

    Protestantism seeks to base itself upon the Bible, yet the Bible can't be itself without Apostolic Tradition and an authoritative teaching office that can make binding decisions with regard to the faithful. These two entities were integral in the formation of the NT canon, so when you discard with them, you have also stripped the Bible of its canon.

    Either 1. You implicitly recognize the authority of the bishops who are in apostolic succession and the apostolic tradition or 2. You have both the right and the mandate to discard and add to the New Testament the Catholic Church has perpetuated.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Carson's 49 AD "extreme" speculation about Didache is at most... "entertaining".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly Active Member

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    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
     
  5. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    OK, how much doctrine is necessary for salvation? How much reproof? How much correction? How much instruction in righteousness?

    And can those things, necessary for salvation, only come from Scripture?
     
  6. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    OK maybe an argument can be made that the scriptures are not absolutely necessary in every case.

    But let us tread carefully in the presence of such remarks and let everybody affirm that the scriptures have a Divine purpose and are useful for the purpose God has ordained them for.
     
  7. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    Just to clarify, I didn't set out to "prove" that scripture wasn't necessary for salvation. I was more interested in asking the question "how much of scripture is necessary for salvation" and seeing what followed.
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    The gospel is necessary for salvation. As much Scripture as is needed to present the gospel message is necessary for a person to be saved. That includes:
    1. Showing a person that they are a sinner in need of a Saviour, for it is their sin that has separated them from God. (Rom.3:23)
    2. Explaining the consequence of sin--death, eternal death or eternal separation from God in a place called Hell (eventually the Lake of fire). Romans 6:23. We are sinners and sin has its consequences. How can sinful man stand before a holy God?
    3. Explaining the love of God--Romans 5:8
    But God demonstrated His towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    The great demonstration of God's love was his death upon the cross. It was for you, for me. If you were the only one on the face of this world Christ would come and take your place and die just for you. He loves you. He died for your sin. There is no one in this world that God loves any more than you.
    It was his blood that was shed for you.
    When he died, he was buried, and then on the third day, He arose from the dead, conquering sin and death and Hell. Because He lives, we also live. Because He lives you can live eternally.
    4. Simply, Believe what he has done for you.
    John 1:12 "As many as receive him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
    Receive him into your heart and life.
    By faith accept Him as your Savior and Lord, and He will give you eternal life and forgiveness of sins,
    "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

    There are plenty of tracts that explain the above plan of salvation, perhaps better than I just did. Some more concisely, some more elaborately, some more eloquently. But it is the gospel message that needs to be understood. If the listener does not understand that he is a sinner, there is no sense in going any further. A person must be lost before he can be saved. They must understand that they have a need of a Saviour before they are willing to be saved. The gospel is really very simple. The stubborness of mankind to admit his need, and humble himself enough to receive Christ by faith without any works of his own, is difficult.
    DHK
     
  9. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    So how many of them does one have to read and to understand? Must one read the Bible cover to cover for salvatoin. Does one have to know at least one verse for salvatoin, if so which one. If a person needs none for salvatoin then is the Word of God even neccessary for salvatoin? If he needs more than one verse then how many?

    Very interesting thread Mike.
     
  10. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    "The gospel is necessary for salvation. As much Scripture as is needed to present the gospel message is necessary for a person to be saved."

    So you are saying that some of it is not neccessary? Redundant? Superfoulous?

    Is more neccessary of some and less for others?

    If one of the most important things of the reformatoin was getting the Bible in to the common man's hands, then it seems that Bible reading must be essential? So how much of it must be read? What happens to those who cannot read? Must we all be Bereans?

    BLessings
     
  11. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    OK, supposing somebody has had the "core" gospel preached to them, e.g. from one of those tracts. Is there any benefit to that person then to read the rest of the Bible? Does reading the entire Bible, and reading it over and over, and hearing it preached over and over, give that person something above and beyond what they got from the tract?

    (In case anybody thinks I'm knocking the reading and studying of scripture, I believe there is a benefit, but I'd like to hear what others think)
     
  12. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly Active Member

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    If the Word of God hadn't been written down, giving us a place to constantly be able to return to, what would have happened to the message by now? It would have become even more convoluted and distant from the original than it is now. Just look at what we've done on this thread and this board!
     
  13. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    The Catholic Church agree's wholeheartedly with you. That is why they have so dillegently protected the scriptures for 2000 years. However we do not believe the message is convoluted and distant. We believe that Jesus protected his truth long after he ascended in to heaven. That you would say such a thing tells me you are very uncertain of your own beliefs.
     
  14. John3v36

    John3v36 New Member

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    James, the 1/2 brother of Christ, most likely wrote the first book of the New Testament in approx. 40-44 AD. The recipients of the book were jewish believers scattered (James 1:1), possibly as a result of Stephen's martyrdom (Acts 7, approx. 40-44 AD)

    There are some people who try to this day to add to the Bible. In the 1500's one church tried to add books between the testaments.
    The Waldenses, a Church still around today, started about the same time the RC did in the 3rd century. They had the same Bible we Christians use today. There is an arabic Bible that some "Biblical scholars" believe dates back shortly after Thomas death that we still have with us today. I don't know why you think everything has to happen thru the RC System. We had the Bible long before it started in the 3rd century, and it will be with us long after it is gone.
     
  15. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    So, John3v36, how about an answer to my questions? Don't be shy, I'm not grading! How much of the Bible is necessary for salvation? And, if your answer is not "All," what is the benefit of the remaining parts? Is John 3:36 enough? Not enough? Too much?
     
  16. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    "There are some people who try to this day to add to the Bible. In the 1500's one church tried to add books between the testaments. "

    Um, if your talking about the 7 books we call the dueterocanonicals, I'm sorry but your history is verifiably flawed. They have been a part of the Christian Bible quite clearly at least from the end of the fourth century verifiably. It was Luther and company who removed them. Pope Damasus in 384 declared them a part of the canon. They were included in Jerome's Vulgate version and this cannon was ratified at the councils of Hippo, Carthage, Flourence (around 1100) and then Trent. Your history is simply askew.


    "The Waldenses, a Church still around today, started about the same time the RC did in the 3rd century."

    [​IMG] This is news to me. Especially since they were started by a man named Peter Waldo who would not even have been an egg in his mama's womb in the third century because he wasn't around until the 12th. Proof please.

    "They had the same Bible we Christians use today. There is an arabic Bible that some "Biblical scholars" believe dates back shortly after Thomas death that we still have with us today. I don't know why you think everything has to happen thru the RC System. We had the Bible long before it started in the 3rd century, and it will be with us long after it is gone."

    The fact is there were no bound bibles until the late 4th, early 5th century. Everything was on scrolls. So no, in fact there was not something called a Bible before that time and the Church actually around that time considered about 200 books as candidates for the canon of which the 73 were decided on.

    Do get Henry Graham's "Where we got the Bible" available at Catholic.com so we can have a good discussion of the issue.

    Blessings
     
  17. Harley4Him

    Harley4Him New Member

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    If you don't want to read about some really destructive measures taken to destroy bibles, don't get this book. You'd be amazed at some of the things early English protestants did. It's a scandal.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1 Corinthians 3:1-2 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

    Paul calls the Corinthian believers carnal, and he also calls them babes in Christ. They were as infants still needing milk; immature, not able to eat meet like an older child or an adult. Paul wanted to feed them the meat of God's Word but he was unable to. These believers had not absorbed the essentials of God's Word. As you read through the epistle you find Paul going through some very basic things, especially when you come to the end of the epistle when Paul must explain the doctrine of the resurrection itself. They were carnal, immature believers that had not studied much of God's Word.
    Many of the believers that were addressed in the Book of Hebrews were the same way.

    Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

    Every new believer needs discipleship, teaching. Therefore Paul said to Timothy:
    2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

    Timothy was to teach those things which he had learned to faithful men who would in turn teach others. (It was the Bible of course).

    It is our obligation to do the same, not only for others but also for ourselves:
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Jesus said:
    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Paul's testimmony:
    Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

    Isaiah's Warning:
    Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Paul says about the Scripture:
    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    All Scripture is not only inspired, it is profitable, and it is beneficial for the believer to study it.
    DHK
     
  19. New In Christ

    New In Christ New Member

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    Back in the day, I didn't NEED to know customs and courtesies, military history, or my career-specific information to join the Air Force, I only needed the recruiter. But you better believe I needed to learn such things to advance.

    I didn't need to know electronics, principles of radio frequency transmission, Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Law, or any such thing to be put in the career field I had, but you better know that to perform my job as required I had to learn those things.

    I may not need all the Bible to get into the fold, but to be a useful sheep I better learn and know it.
     
  20. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    If you don't want to read about some really destructive measures taken to destroy bibles, don't get this book. You'd be amazed at some of the things early English protestants did. It's a scandal. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, all for the gold in the bindings to finance wars. The quickest way to get it out of course was a match.

    Blessings
     
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