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How the KJV 1611 handled the Apocrypha

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Mar 10, 2004.

  1. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    Yes indeed I have faith in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and all his promises, and his Word of Truth that he holds above all, even his own name. Amen!

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Glad to hear that Michelle; you had me scared when you talked about your faith being in a translation.

    And what is that "word of truth that he holds above all"? And is that above Jesus Himself?

    And if you say "XYZ translation", then please "show me" (you're from Missouri, right?) the chapter and verse.

    Thanks.
     
  3. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    I think it has already been stated correctly that the Church of England's official doctrinal statement, the 39 Articles of Religion is very clear they do not view nor never have viewed the Apocrypha as part of the Canon. Unlike the Roman Catholic Church it is in a separate section. Interesting is that many Reformation Anabaptists often preached and taught from the Apocrypha and were the only Reformers that did not completely reject the Apocrypha.

    That actually is a incorrect analogy concerning the Church of England. The Anglican Church historically has held staunchly to Reformation Doctrine. Compare the 39 Articles and the Book of Common Prayer with any Roman Catholic Catechism and you will see no comparison to make. Some of the greatest Christian leaders in history were Anglicans such as Thomas Cranmer, Nicholas Ridley, Hugh Latimer, George Whitefield, John Wesley, Charles Wesley, William Gurnall, Charles Simeon, John Newton, J.C. Ryle just to name a few. Many of our greatest Hymns come from the Church of England (Amazing Grace, And Can it Be? Christ the Lord is Risen Today)

    Baptists have our roots in the English Reformation and our Soterology reflects an influence of the Anglican Reformers because without them it is doubtful Baptists would even exist.

    It is true the Church of England has these readings but it is also clear they have no Doctrinal authority. The Apocrypha itself does have important history (1 and 2 Maccabbees) and other interesting readings. They did not however believe the Apocrypha was canon and to state differantly is a misunderstanding of Anglican theology.
     
  4. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    I have never attacked the KJV. I have never said it is corrupt. Anyone who does say the KJV is corrupt out to be rebuked for profaning what is sacred.

    I believe the KJV is the very precious gift of God's word to us. So are other translations. God has given it all to us. It is the way God has transmitted His God-breathed scripture to us: His word is preserved for us in the totality of the translations, in the multiplicity of texts. We ought to thank Him for His good gifts rather than denigrating them.
     
  5. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you in Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour!


    You are all deaf in the ears. These answers have been given to you over and over again. My authority comes from the Bible I hold in my hands that has been with the english speaking people for over 400 years, in the KJV. There are no omittions, or changing of words to affect context,or try to ammend what looks like contradictions, that aren't, that end up distorting the truth, or making God to be decieved, or to make Lucifer the morning star (blasphemy), to change the word Easter to Passover which changes the truth, there are not omissions that affect doctrine, or weaken the deity of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, which cannot be said of the modern versions. I also have the testimony of the Holy Spirit and his conviction upon my heart. He leads us to all truth. I also have God's promise of preservation of his word, and that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. This cannot be found in the modern versions. They have omitted so much of God's word and is therefore not every word, only most words, that it has weakened doctrine, the deity of Christ among many other things. My scriptural proof, is that to which I hold in my hands in the KJV, from beginning to end and to the text that underlines it the very truths that generations and generations of truly born again christians lived, taught, memorized, preserved, stood for, died for throughout the church age.

    Where is your authority for your stand? Where does God tell us it is okay for us to omitt things or change things in his word?

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  6. Dan Todd

    Dan Todd Active Member

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    Michelle,

    I believe that the original autographs were verbally inspired and without error.

    We no longer have any original autographs - if we did - I fear that that those originals would be the object of worship - just as supposed bits of our Savior's cross are objects of worship.

    I invite you to add 2 + 2 and see if you come up with the drift of this post!
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    That is quite an indictment.

    James 4:11
    Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
    There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

    Besides that, logic does not preclude faith and faith does not preclude logic...

    Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    HankD
     
  8. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    Hank,

    I was not saying his faith in Jesus Christ. I was speaking of his faith in God's preserved word. I am not questioning his salvation and faith in Jesus Christ. I am talking about his approach to the word of God.

    Is it a sin to stand for the pure word of God that he has preserved for us? Is it a sin to point out errors to others? I think not, and is actually contrary to that.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We might ask the same of you.
    The authority of God which flowed through
    The authority of King James/The authority of the Anglo-Catholic Church of Rome/England?

    Most of the men on the AV translation committee were schooled in the Church of Rome theology, the Church of England did a yo-yo between the Church of Rome, the Church of England for many years.
    Baptists and other dissenting Christians were persecuted and murdered by the CofE. The original Puritans fleeing England bringing their Geneva Version Bibles with them to America.

    The AV shows this religious dichotomy both internally and externally. For example, the AV uses the term "bishop" to signify an office of a ministerial (sacerdotal) priesthood which is heresy. To this day they call their priests "father" who celebrate the Anglo-Catholic version of the RCC mass.

    Is this your authority?

    HankD
     
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    It IS a sin (or at least an admission of "no answer") not to answer my simple question from an hour ago.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Well, there goes
    the credibility [​IMG] of Michelle. Dan was
    NOT speaking of the KJV with his "duck"
    message. Dan was speaking of Anglicans
    who act like Catholics.
     
  12. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    Hank,

    You all amaze me. You really do. Do you really base your objection to the truth in this matter based upon those things? The evidence we have is that God has preserved his word for the english speaking people in the KJV. Is it also in the modern versions? You can find his word in them, but it has been altered and weakened. Should I reject the whole counsel of God based upon what you stated in your last post, even though what has come out of that translation has been a blessing to the english speaking churches, and the world for 400 years, over that of modern versions that have omitted God's word and has done nothing but help to increase apostacy and liberalism in the churches? I think you are smart enouph to figure this one out.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Sister Russell55 - Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Michelle: " ... modern versions that have omitted God's word and has done nothing but help to increase apostacy and liberalism in the churches?"

    We have shown time and again that you debase
    God's word in your denouncement of the Modern Versions
    and that there were no omissions.

    Further let us show you. The first "mv" was complete
    in 1881 and never was as popular as the KJV.
    After it was completed there was a rise in liberalism
    until 1920. After the Fundamentalist movement reached
    its peak of definition in 1920 the fight aganinst
    liberalism caused a decrease in liberalism. So
    the rise of The modern versions (MVs) is a time of
    decline of liberalism.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Ask you again, sweetly, for ONE VERSE OF "EVIDENCE" (your word) to show the KJV is that preserved word.

    ONE VERSE
     
  16. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    Dr. Bob, you can wait until after the millennial reign of Christ and will still not have an answer to this question. They do not have an answer, so all they can do is accuse and belittle those who ask these types of questions.

    The truth is that some just cannot see that the MV's do not question or compete with the KJV. If anything they add to this 400 year translation. I am grateful that God is not limited to Elizabethan English in order to convey His truth. I am confident that as time continues to advance, there will be other reliable translations that God can and will use to bring glory to Himself and cause other to come to faith in Him.

    I assume that this fruitless debate will continue to rage for years to come. I actually doubt that this is ever settled. Gratefully, in my area of the country, little is said about this in the baptist circles I know of. Even in churches I have attended in which the pastor uses the KJV (which is where I am now), it is no big deal if others use the KJV or not. Of course, I will never willingly attend a church where KJVonlyism is even tolerated. To do so would be to add to the Gospel of Christ and this is wrong.
     
  17. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    "The evidence we have is that God has preserved his word for the english speaking people in the KJV."

    Michelle, you are positing your position as your evidence. That's a logical fallacy.

    It's like saying, "Democrats are the best politicians in the US because Democrats are the best politicians.
     
  18. Dan Todd

    Dan Todd Active Member

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    Michelle said:
    My wife and I have three children: our son and his wife were married about two years after they met.

    One daughter and her husband were married about three years after they met.

    The other daughter and her husband were married about five years after they met.

    To the five years after couple - I used to ask them - "When are you going to get married?" Their answer - "When God tells us to!" I would then reply - "What are you waiting for - for God to write in the sky - it's time to get married?"

    My verbose analogy - I think some KJVOs must have seen writing in the sky - because they haven't told us yet the reference of "Thus saith the Lord - My word is only preserved in the KJV!"

    Perhaps God hasn't given us the verse yet - because He doesn't know which revision of the KJV He has preserved!
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother Dan Todd -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Here is you a proof text: 1 Kings 18:27.
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    When God created you He gave you a brain and expects you to use wisdom. He also expects you to follow his word logically when exercisinmg self control and humility. To make the statement you did is to lower another and elevate yourself.

    Are you saying that nothing you do is logical? Do you put gas in your car only by faith. If the pump doesn't work isn't it logicval to ask the attendant rather thyan pray and squeeze the trigger on the nozzle by faith. Sometimes what people call faith is just plain ignorance.

    To understand scripture it helps a lot to understand the culture at the time. That is both logical and wise. It includes philosophy, logic, politics, social conditions, religious conditions, environmetal conditions and a host of other things.

    You cannot go from exegesis to theology until you understand the past culture and the present culture.
     
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