How were the Old Testament Saints saved?

That saints went down into the earth before Jesus ascended and offered his blood on the mercy seat is shown in the story of the witch of Endor.

1 Sam 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

Samuel was a prophet and saint. When he died he went down into Abraham's Bosom to wait until Jesus ascended to heaven and offered his blood on the mercy seat. No man could appear before God until this was accomplished, as their sins had not yet been atoned for.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Until Jesus's blood was offered on the mercy seat in heaven, no man could come there.

 

Again here is what Jesus said,

Luke 16:

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The rich man was in hell and yet could see into paradise. So are you saying hell is in heaven?

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Where is the place of torments? In heaven or in hell and yet from there he saw Abraham and Lazarus.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There was a gulf between them so that those in torments couldn't cross and yet the rich man was in hell, but Abraham and Lazarus were in the Paradise abode of Hades.
Jesus was quite clear in relaying this story.

 

Thanks was trying to find the way to express it.

 

I have come to realize that you do not have the maturity to handle discussion with those who do not agree with you. Your false and personal attack is unjustified and untruthful. Its time to grow up.

 

Man—this is a tough topic to be completely dogmatic about—while I personally think the Bible clearly affirms that it was their faith that saved them---where they went after death or what all that their faith entailed can be difficult. Before I went to school, I use to strongly believe in the descent of Christ--- where he went on a rescue mission & got the OT believers & personally ushered them into heaven (which either happened between his crucifixion & resurrection, or possibly right after his resurrection). But then I did a paper trying to prove this theory & found it extremely difficult to prove with unbiased biblical evidence. Some of the difficulties really revolve around the meaning of Luke 16:19-31—is this a parable, is it figurative language, did Jesus mean for it to be a genuine picture of the afterlife that should be taken literally, & so on & so on. Other problems revolved around the meaning of 1 Pet 3:18-20; the meaning of certain terms used about the afterlife in both the OT & NT; the meaning of Jesus’ words to the thief on the cross; where Enoch & Elijah went; & was the atonement of Christ applied to the OT believer before he actually underwent (in a historical sense) the crucifixion & resurrection---to name but a few issues. After finishing my paper I was more confused than ever---but came to one very certain conclusion----Christ did go on a rescue mission—but this happened when he left heaven, took on flesh, lived the perfect obedient sinless life, died an atoning sacrificial death on the cross, & rose from the dead-- declaring victory over his enemies! I might not know all the how’s, what’s, & where’s that revolve around this topic--- but I do know “the who” that it took to make it all happen!

 

Two cents...

They were two different places until Christ's ascention. Then they became one.

"While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham's Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25). As we mentioned before, Tartarus may be a specific place in Sheol/Hades.

We know that Jesus Christ went "into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9), that is to Sheol/Hades, "in the heart of the earth," for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (Mat. 12:40). The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). This tells us that Paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time. We believe that this was the same place referred to as Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16. However, after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He ascended to the Father, taking the saints who were in Abraham's Bosom to heaven with Him. Thus, He took "captivity captive" (see Eph. 4:8-10).

That Paradise was moved to heaven is confirmed to us by the Apostle Paul who speaks of a man who was "caught up into Paradise" where he "heard unspeakable words" (II Cor. 12:3,4). With Jesus Christ's work complete, the believers who had been confined to Sheol/Hades were now taken to Heaven to wait in God's presence until the time of their resurrection to enter His Kingdom on Earth. Since that time, at death all believers go to Paradise in Heaven to await the time of their resurrection. This is true whether they belong to the Kingdom Church of the future or the Body of Christ Church of the present Dispensation of Grace."

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1192569770.html

 

Hi T

Is that an argument against what I posted?

Just wondering...

 

Hi Mandy

Nicodemus asked “How can these things (vs. 3-8) be?” The context is about being born again. What Jesus said in vs. thirteen is that unless a person is born again, he cannot see/enter heaven. Thus, nobody was yet born again at that point. If they had been, they would have seen the kingdom of God (vs. 3b), or another way of saying it is that they would have entered the kingdom of God (vs. 5b).

The Church was not birthed until Pentecost. Until that time, nobody was part of the Body of Christ, thus nobody was yet born again. Without that spiritual union with Jesus, post death, resurrection and ascention, one cannot be born again, nor was His sin atoned for.

God seperated Adam and Eve from Himself because of one sin. Think of the implications of that. How can anyone who has sinned (specifically OT saints)be in God's presence without their sin being atoned? They can't, if they could, Adam and Eve would have never had to leave in the first place. That's why they had to be kept away from God (who passed over their sin-Romans 3:21-26) until their sin was atoned. They were kept in paradise, which was part of Hades before Jesus' ascention to the third heaven.

Born again...Romans 6:3-11; Col. 2:10-4; 1 Peter 3:21; Galatians 3:2,26-29; -- "raised us up together" Ephesians 2:1-10 -- "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3-5 etc...

 

--Jesus told the theif on the cross "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

That day---Jesus went to the lower parts of the earth, not heaven (Eph. 4:9) And stayed there for three days.

What say you?

 

Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Acts 2:31-33 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Eph. 4:7-10 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:


“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

Revelation 20:13-15 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.""

The promised Seed, He being Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:15-18), is a promise that could only be realized for believers though the NT indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Who is the Spirit of Christ -- Romans 8:9). The promised "Seed" was a promise that Abraham, along with other OT believers, had died having not received (Hebrews 11:13-16), because that Promise could only be realized after Christ's death and resurrection (Atonement).

We NT believers becomes heirs along with Abraham (Galatians 3:26-29) through faith by way of the Spirit baptism, which spiritually places us into the Body of Christ. The receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit per the NT Promise is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's why the NT spiritual union that resulted from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit becomes a seal of promise (Ephesians 1:13,14).

Pre Pentecost...

John 14:16-18: And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Also see John 7:39, John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:16, John 16:7, John 16:10, which were all fulfilled at Pentecost Acts 2:33.

 

Well actually there are three compartments of sheoul, Paradise is no empty since Christ took the O.T. believers to heaven, then there is torments, finally their is the Bottomless pit (Tartarus) Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Jude 1: 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Revelation 9: 1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power

So there is a third section of sheoul or Hades known as the bottomless pit. Satan will be imprisioned there 1000 years and the angels whcich kept not their first estate are there now.

 

When Jesus died, His Spirit went back to God, and His natural body was laid in the tomb. The Spirit went up(ascended up to heaven), and His body was laid in the tomb(descended to the lower parts of the earth).....this is what the Word says. After three days and nights, His Spirit entered back into His body, and He arose from the tomb alive, and alive forevermore!!!

The theif's soul/spirit went to paradise with Jesus' Spirit.

i am I AM's!!

Willis