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Hyper-calvinism

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by shilo, Oct 22, 2002.

  1. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    So all of these Calvinist sites are trying to lump Arminianism and "Hyper-Calvinism" together now, and accusing both of using "reason". Isn't it possible that the moderate Calvinists took an unbiblical position and modified it to make it more biblical, and then called the contradictions that remained "quite tensions"? (pt.1 and concl.)

    What difference does this make when God is laughing at their torment in Hell, as "true" (moderate) Calvinist Edwards and others taught? Since eternity is what ultimately matters, why not say He only hates them?
    Hyper Calvinists still agree with moderate Calvinists that these people had no chance to be saved, so what difference does "responsibility" make? It is only a means of condemning helpless souls.
    the second site adds:
    But this "call to repentance" also only serves to "leave them without excuse" and thus appear to make it look just. What's the difference between this and God just creating them for Hell, not offering the Gospel to them, not holding them "responsible" for anything, and just telling this moderate Calvinist along with the Arminian "Who are you O man to reply to Me"? "I, the Potter can make 'Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction' for my own pleasure (no human reasons needed), just like I rejected Esau before he was even born and did any good or evil". All of Calvinism uses these passages, yet now this moderate Calvinist position is trying to distance itself from other Calvinists and not only that, but even lump them in with the dreaded Arminians. But you too are using just as much reasoning as you asccuse everyone else in your trying to modify the position a bit to answer some scriptures it ignored. (such as the call to all, responsibility, etc)
    But if "grace" and "wrath" are "for His glory" as all Calvinists explain, then the Fall must have been a means to that end, and still there is no essential difference between the "hyper" position.
    (this thread is now paralleling the "logical/non-Calvinist" thread).
    This is also why the The hypers, supras and primitives will claim that this "true" Calvinist position is the same as Arminianism. Just like you are accusing them of using "reason" like us, it seems you are removing the offense of the doctrine, also just like us supposedly, only not going as far.

    [ October 24, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
     
  2. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I agree with Primitive Baptist on this. The Gospel is not an offer, upon which the truth of it depends upon the acceptance of #'s.

    I do not know how Primitive Baptist believes on declaring, and responsibility of man; but I do not think man is not responsible to God; only that he is unable to fulfill that responsibility apart from being acted upon and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

    I have heard people claim that those who never hear the Gospel will be saved because of the absence of the message being preached to them. If this is true, we would be better off to never proclaim the Gospel again, so all would grow ignorant of the message of Salvation and thus would be saved.

    God Bless.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The question remains what is the purpose of the written gospel... To make sheep or feed sheep?... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  4. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Eric B:

    You haven't actually read much of Edwards, have you?

    To All:

    The essential difference between "Calvinism" and "Hyper-Calvinism" is that "Calvinism" [Reformed Theology](Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Dort, the Puritans, Edwards, the Tennents, Whitefield, Frelinghuysen, Spurgeon, etc.) maintains that individuals are responsible for their thoughts, words and actions because they have free moral agency. This means, for the "Calvinist," that the Gospel is to be preached to all and that all are responsible to trust Christ alone for salvation and to turn from their sins. "Hyper-Calvinism," on the other hand, denies human responsibility / free moral agency. The "Hypers" maintain that the lost have no duty to trust Christ nor to turn from their sins. Therefore they are "Hardshells," they don't believe in evangelism and missions.

    So, "Calvinists" affirm human responsibility and free moral agency and work to win the lost through prayer and the proclamation of the Gospel (2 Tim. 1:10 - just like Paul, who suffered "all things" for the sake of the "elect" that they "might be saved").

    "Hyper-Calvinists" deny human responsibility and free moral agency and do not work to win the lost. They see no point in it.

    If you want to continue making arguments that they are the same thing, go ahead, I'm too busy to explain this any further. I need to go spend some time in prayer for the sake of my lost co-workers before I head to work this afternoon (seriously).

    Rev. G

    Rev. G
     
  5. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    Amen, Frogman. The preaching of the gospel is not an offer. It is a proclamation that God hath visited and redeemed His people (Lk. 1:68). It is not "good advice," but good news. Isaiah wrote, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" (Is. 61:1) The Lord Jesus Christ applied these words to Himself while He was in the world (Lk. 4:18). He did not say that He would propose liberty to the captives or propose the opening of the prison to them that are bound, but that He would proclaim it. No, I do not believe in "duty faith" and "duty repentance." Are we to present the gospel to mixed multitudes and preach that God loves them, but after all, they have God wrapped around their finger because He cannot do anything unless they "let" Him? Or command them to exercise the faith of God's elect (Titus 1:1) like zealous Arminians? Or rather command them to repent and other such things that God alone grants when it pleases Him? I will concede that no man can exercise faith and believe or repent without a knowledge of the gospel, but to teach that the gospel commands men to do such is beyond the what the Scriptures teach.

    "Scratch a Calvinist, and you'll find an Arminian."

    That might offend "Moderate" Calvinists or whatever they wish to call themselves, but it is essentially the truth.

    [ October 24, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  6. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Edwards said clearly what I ascribed to him in "Sinners In the Hand of an Angry God", which someone posted here a while ago.

    OK, so that moderate Calvinists obey the command to spread the Gospel is a significant legitimate difference. But the rest of the outcomes for the lost are the same. (Still there's Glen's [primitive] point as to whether this "Gospel preaching" is even for the non-elect in the correct Calvinist scheme.)
     
  7. No, it is an antinomy.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you mean , "alimony"?
     
  8. Chappie:

    I was raised a "5-point Arminian," then for a time was a "Whiskey Calvinist" - I only took 1/5 of it ("once saved always saved"). I was in that that system of belief for nearly twenty years. I know about it.

    Rev. G
    </font>[/QUOTE]What we practice in error for twenty years, does not become truth january 1, of the nest year.

    Please do not think for a moment that I support Arminism. If calvin could get it wrong, so could Arminus. I choose to stand before God bearing my mistakes and mine alone.

    If the scripture shows me that Arminus was wrong, we have to duke it out same as with calvinism.

    Calvin has his five points, Arminus has his five points, why does not one have four points and the other five. The answer... Pride. They both started out trying to prove the other wrong. And they tried to do it with scripture. They both are just as sad as we are.....
     
  9. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    "Hyper-Calvinists," such as I, do see fit in preaching the gospel. However, those "evangelistic" methods and missionary machinery invented by the Missionary Baptists when they broke away in 1832 is not what I call evangelism at all. Any "Calvinist" who would ascribe to such sad methods of "evangelism" ought to not claim to believe in the doctrines of grace. Since the atonement had a definite end, the gospel does also. The gospel is not to win people to God who otherwise would not be, but to call those who are OF GOD and make them disciples for the honor and glory of God. This "if-you-want-to" gospel is not enough for me. So yes, I do see fit in preaching and making disciples, but I do not see going outside the boundaries of the Scriptures to do it. The command was to "go," not "send." God does the sending. We are to pray the Lord of the harvest, that HE WILL SEND laborers into His harvest. So, in that way, every child of God is a "missionary," if you will. In the whole Bible, we never find Paul telling the churches to sponsor activities to raise money to send folks out. Jesus told the disciples not to take ANYTHING with them, that God, without whom a sparrow cannot fall from the sky, would provide for them. Now we have bake sales, youth organizations, and everything else to attract the world and the reprobates.
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The Baptist Split in 1832 completely changed the theology and practice of the Baptist down through the ages and altered the history of the Baptist people in time... Baptist History proves nothing less!... Brother Glen
     
  11. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    I knew you would say what you said..

    Consider this. Rev. 22;17 may not be the gospel itself However it is certainly an invitation to come to the Lord for salvation. The key words there would be "Freely" "Take" "whosoever is athirst" "Water of Life"
    In the church age how do you get water of life? through the death the burial and the ressurection of Christ and Calling on the Lord for salvation.

    So you can definatly through comparing scripture with scripture link it to be an invitation to come to the Lord.

    So according to you..this phrase And let HIM that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL let HIM take

    doesn't mean the world..how can you possibly say that?? it clearly and without a doubt means ANYONE. not just a select group but ANYONE anyone in this world.. anyone. not just the elect..

    What you are saying then is God lied..he lied here in revelation and he also lied in John 3:16 becaue in john 3:16 the word "whosoever" is directly connected with the word "world". but according to you and your logic world really doesn't mean all the world, so God lied.

    He also then must have lied when he said in Tim.2:4 that he would have ALL MEN to come to be saved, and to come unto the knowlege of the truth.
    He must have lied when he said that Christ tasted death For every man.( heb2:9) God must have lied all over the place.. :eek: :eek:

    So really I should take a pen and go through to all those places and CHANGE what GOD said and put in the Words "for the elect only" because according to you..God made a mistake and that is what he really meant to say. :confused:

    You say the gospel is the good News..I agree with you 100% it is good news..however. it is only good news if you are the so called "elect"... if your not of the chosen by God it really isn't good news at all. [​IMG]
     
  12. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Edited to remove accidental double post.

    [ October 24, 2002, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  13. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Are you sure? I just skimmed the sermon, and I couldn't find it. Anyway, I suspect that any laughter God has directed toward sinful human beings is derisive laughter, not the laughter of pleasure--it seems to me there is scornful laughter toward the wicked recorded in scripture.
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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  15. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    "Whosovever will" means anyone who is willing, doesn't it?

    As Calvinists, we believe that only those who are made willing will be willing. But we also believe that absolutely anyone out of the world who wills will be welcomed.
     
  16. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Chappie:
    If you study your history you will actually find that Arminius had a great deal of respect for Calvin. Calvin never tried to prove Arminius wrong, because he was dead before it became an "issue" with him.

    Are you saying that the reason I believe the things I do, and that you do, are because of pride? If so, please, as you insisted, speak only for yourself. There is a difference between arrogance and conviction.

    Eric B:
    I never said you hadn't read Edwards at all, just questioned that you had read much of him. There is a difference.

    To All:
    If you want to know what a "Hyper-Calvinist" is, look at the posts of the one who has called himself such and has shown himself aligned with such in his posts - Primitive Baptist. PB, I mean this as no slight to you. I'm just pointing out what you have said, and what others have described as "Hyper-Calvinism."

    Rev. G
     
  17. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    "it is only good news if you are the so called "elect"... if your not of the chosen by God it really isn't good news at all."

    For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? (2 Cor. 2:15, 26)

    The "invitation," if you will, of Rev. 22:17 is to the world in a sense. It is to all those in the world are are athirst. Dead people don't thirst. You hear me?
     
  18. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Dead people don't thirst, don't hear, don't see, etc., etc., etc. That doesn't change the fact that...

    God now "commands all people everywhere to repent." - Acts 17:30

    Rev. G
     
  19. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    Dead people are just that dead..they don't reject either. be consistant

    paul said

    "I was ALIVE without the law once: but when the commandment came , sin revivied, and I died"

    Your theology won't fly in face of scripture.
     
  20. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    Hey rev.G can you believe I agree with you here o this one?? :D
     
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