I am going to trick you!

Actually, if we were under the law Bismarck would have a point.

The Hebrew Shekel was without an image (apart from hebrew letters) until after the razing of the temple in 70AD because of the commandment against images.

Another point is that the eye above the pyramid is the eye of Horis-Isis a false god-godess. The question then becomes who is being referred to in the motto "IN GOD WE TRUST"...

HankD

 

Hello Amity,

Well it is hard to understand God’s plan or how He chooses to work. However, we can agree there are evil people, as well as there are evil rulers and governments. As the Bible shows the Lord has and will deal with un-Godly people and nations. Thus it is not for us to question, or sit idly by while the Devil does his work; simply because we believe in the end God’s Will is done. No, instead we are to work for the good and Glory of God of which he uses us for His ultimate goals.

Well you may never agree on this but there is the truth and facts. I am not saying the Nation was formed to be a Theocracy but it was most definitely not formed to be a Secular or Godless nation. That is something the Founders absolutely feared and believed dangerous to society. They understood the undertaking with the Revolution and its implications before God as Stated in the Bible. These concerns can easily be seen in the Declaration of Independence.

Thus the undertaking was greatly influenced from a religious aspect as well as with Religious leaders of the day. The Government itself recognizes and touches upon the importance religion played in the Founding of this nation.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html




This is well off subject and has been debated in the history forum http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=30576
However, I would like to touch upon a few things.

The Pilgrims were also our founders whom fled England due to religious persecution. They came to America and settled it as they stated, "Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith…” Mayflower Compact http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/2.htm

This has always been the case with America. It is something the Founding Fathers also believed and incorporated. Read Holy Trinity v. U.S. 1892, as the Supreme Court undertook extensively in researching Christianity in America's history and sums it up nicely.

http://members.aol.com/TestOath/HolyTrinityOp1-2.htm



One of the first acts of Congress was to appoint a Christian Chaplain, The Ten Commandments is engraved in Federal Buildings, they pray before sessions, held Church services in Congress, procured and distributed Bibles, established Thanksgiving Day as a day to give thanks to our Lord etc, etc.
The Founders also reenacted the Northwest Ordinance upon completing the Constitution, which states Article 3 "Religion, morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind..............." It also began what they thought would be the eventual abolition of slavery. Article 6. “There shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in the said territory….”

In offering assistance to the Native Indians George Washington states

Washington appointed and Congress approved, John Jay first Chief Justice of Supreme Court, whom said

John Quincy Adams remarks on America at a Fourth of July celebration;

There were only a few Founders whom would have been considered Deists. Most had a quite personal relationship with the Lord. Thomas Paine is one of only a few who would have ever fallen into such a category. He wrote the “Age of Reason”, which promoted Deism and attacked evangelical Christianity. Most every Founding Father condemned his views and publication of this blasphemy as it was seen. They dubbed it the atheist bible and he became a despised man. He had to leave America but did return only to die a complete outcast and had to be buried in a field, as no cemetary would accept him.

Etc, etc.


To get back on subject though, I just feel as David Lamb that we should be careful as to how we choose to see or use secularism. There is nothing wrong with distinguishing us from the World in using “secularism”. However such is unnecessary as being a Christian is being separate or not of the World.

Therefore secularism and secularist, often simply want to suggest there are things which are best if devoid of God or His word.

Take care:jesus:

 

Your quite mistaken Magnetic Poles. History is history and again the Government recognizes our historical religious and Christian heritage. But to point we have indeed, and have had, many laws against; Sodomy, polygamy, pedophilia, no Gov. Business on Sunday as this was the Lord ’s Day, laws against infidelity, laws against drug abuse, alcohol, gambling, exclusion of atheist in gov. etc etc. etc. These are but a few of the laws we incorporated which were based upon the Bible and Christian principles. They are commonly referred to as Blue laws and there is no denying it.

Yes, the Government was established as a democratic Republic. Which was better representative of people's rights and not a rogue King or corrupt Church. The Founders however stated and recognized God and His Word as contained in the Bible, as the Supreme authority. This as easily and often shown in many personal and official writings and speeches. However one will suffice.

Take care:wavey:

 

Hi Ralph,

Respectfully I must disagree. Some things are against the law because they are things we can all agree on, such as prohibitions against murder, pedophilia, etc. However some of the things you mention were not in the national body of law, but in state & local laws and constitutions, and have been correctly ruled unconstitutional. For example you cite prohibiting atheists to hold public office. That is in direct violation of the requirement of no religious test to hold office. The same for so-called blue laws, and attempts to legislate morality.

Yes, some of the founding fathers were Christians. I myself am descended from one such person. Many others were deists. Thomas Jefferson's writings were anything but an example of modern Christianity.

That said, the personal writings, beliefs, and mores of the founders of the Republic are not in the canon of law. The Constitution is a totally Godless document; had they wanted to establish a Christian nation, they could have explicitly done so. Instead there is no reference to God, and only an oblique one in the phrase "in the year of our Lord". To say that establishes Christianity (in violation of the first amendment) would be to say that we worship Woden by referencing Wednesday; or the Sun by referencing Sunday.

I hope all is well with you and yours. God bless!
MP

 

Well, we even err in applying "theos" to Jehovah in the Scriptures sometimes, so why not on the back of the dollar bill?

 

Good point Hank. I believe if we analyze that found in the seal of the United States of America, we come to the conclusion (perhaps none realized) America was set up to be a world power from the beginning. Nothing happens without the approval of our God. What purpose the pyramid, and then the eagle?

Why "Latin" the "ROMantic" dialect of the language of ancient Rome?

Why choose a symbol of idol worshipers, one that represents Egypt on the reverse, and on the obverse the symbol of idol worship, one that represents Rome?

This took too long to accept as a "coincidence". Does this make the USofA bad or any worse than any other nation? I wouldn't think so for we are a "secular nation", as are all others. We are just thrown in with all the other "common nations". There was, and will again be a nation under God, but believe you will agree we are not it.

Since we are not His Nation that leaves us to the only acceptable explanation . We are no different than Egypt, or Rome, for they were not godless, as they had gods of man.

I love America, and God has chosen America for His purpose, and I believe we are being used in His plan to bring an end to the "Times of the Gentile". The "eye" god may be over America, but our God is over all.

 

This discussion sounds very much like one that sometimes occurs between Christians here in the UK. Some look back into our history, and say things such as this: "Our monarch is supposed to be Defender of the Faith, yet look at him/her!" as though the title meant that the monarch should defend the biblical Christian faith, and forgetting that it had been bestowed originally on King Henry VIII by Pope Leo X in recognition of a treatise the king had written defending the Roman Catholic notion of seven sacraments.

Revelation 5.9 tells us that Christians are redeemed out of every tripe, tongue, people and nation. The idea that some human legislation can make people Christians must surely be wrong, just as wrong as the opposite - the idea that any government or ruler can stop a person from becoming or being a Christian.

 

Hello Magnetic Poles,
Yes, we will have to simply agree to dissagree on many points and I hope you are doing well also.

To point however, you stated

This is false as I most assuredly pointed out and as the Government itself recognizes. Yes, many Moralistic laws, which were indeed based upon Christianity, have been deemed unconstitutional. However again, it was there so the assumption we were not founded on such principles is false. I only gave a few examples but there are still many such principles applied and are "unique" to Christian society only.
No, we were not founded as a Christian Theocracy whereas everything was solely based upon the Bible, but mosty influenced by such. This as even some secularistic groups concede. Yes other cultures, as is still the case today and even among Churches and Christians, did have some influence. Yes, there were also some influences of philosophers but of whom did recognize one Supreme God.



I wish to correct one other thing as you infered our system of government not scripturally based or found in such. When our Founders were deciding on what type form of government, which included kingdom, I beleive it was John Adams who stood up and suggested a 3 branch type, Judicial/Legislative/Executive. This was specifically or in part referenced from scripture.



In addition, most often in the Bible the "kings" which are referred to are kings of un-godly tribes. Many of whom God conquered or destroyed because of such. God often refers to the leaders of His people as just that "leaders" or "rulers" and not denoted as "king". I.E. Abram or Mose's.

It simply stupifies me that there are Christians who prefer or strive to have a secular government, one void of any reference to God or His Word. Because such will not only not invoke the Blessings of God, but it will indeed lead to His eventual wrath.


Anyhow we should strive to be better Christians and we should insist on having leadership of such.

Take care Magnetic Poles and I apprecaite your thoughts on the matter.:jesus:

 

Question............. Can a Christian take their own life and enter into Heaven with our all loving God???????

 

I believe if they were saved once, they are still saved.

I also believe that Satan has established a stronghold in their life or they wouldn't have sunk to such despair, but they are still saved and IMHO will go to Heaven.

 

I agree. Suicide is not the unforgiveable sin. It can be forgiven like any other.

 

I, too agree

 

Why not. If they are in the Body of Christ, it is God the Holy Spirit that won't let Him go. They all are in agreement.

 

Hello Magnetic Poles and others.:wavey:

I apologize for getting "directly" off point but really it is not so far off point as it deals with "secularism" and our Nation. I simply feel as a Christian compelled to properly correct some things at times, for which I do.

Again I do not say they founded the nation as a Theocracy but the nation was founded on Christian principles and this is un-deniable. I wish to elaborate on a few things and to correct some.




1) The founding of our Nation does not rest solely upon the Constitution! However, because it does not specifically state "God" or "Jesus", atheist, separatist, and other such groups like to say it is a Godless document/nation. But in fact they drafted and then signed "in the year of our Lord".

Magnetic Poles makes mention of this because it is something for which I have pointed out. He however states there is "no reference" to God, but then in the same sentence confesses there is an "oblique" one, as he says. This is not directed at Magnetic Poles but take note that separatists, atheist and other such groups never mention the word "Lord", when they declare there is no mention of God at all in the Constitution.

This is apples and bowling balls! We ourselves recognize “Wednesday” as the name given for that specific day, and Sunday etc. The Founders recognized it for the same reason. Nowhere do we say that Wednesday is the day reserved and recognized for Woden. Nor did the Founders. They did however and in FACT recognize the Lord and His Supreme authority!

Lord is Lord, and signing such documents only occurred in Christian nations! This was done most often with documents considered of great importance. Otherwise, it could have simply been dated as that was typical. Such was purposeful, and that intent can also be seen with other official documents in American history.



2) To correct something, this is not the only place in which the Constitution itself recognizes the Lord, or our Christian aspect! Government was/is banned from conducting business on Sunday, as this was the day recognized as the Lord's Day and given for rest. As instructed to us in the Bible.

This is something the Founders faithfully observed and an exception was indeed made for such, in the Constitution itself! As Sunday was recognized as the Lord's day and a day to rest.

http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html



3) As noted, the founding of our Nation is not simply based upon the Constitution itself, as separatist like to argue. The Declaration of Independence(July 4, 1776) founded our Nation and God is most assuredly recognized in it! This is a fact. We celebrate every Fourth of July in recognition of this after all.

The Constitution(1787) is a great document but it simply set up the Federal government as today and replaced the Article of Confederation(1777).




4) The Federal Gov. only in part makes up America but the Declaration of Independence established America, "...united States of America". http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm The states came together to form a federal government but maintained a sovereign nature. Virtually every State, even today, specifically recognizes God.

Magnetic Poles Colorado "We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe....."
My Alabama "WE, The People of the State of Alabama,....secure to ourselves and to our posterity the rights of life, liberty, and property, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God...'
Virginia's Bill of Rights, XVI "Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other."http://www.xerraireart.com/blog/2007/02/17/your-states-preamble/



5) The Ten Commandments is under attack and there are efforts to have it removed from Government buildings or blocking such. At times atheist groups and others are successful in doing so but other times they are not. The Supreme Court recognizes the Historical aspects of the Ten Commandments in America. Today it comes down to "intent". If the intent is to promote or recognize God in a religious manner it may be found unconstitutional. If the intent is a historical manner it is allowed!

(As a side note, Scalia and others make note of this ridiculous precedence, as the Ten Commandments is religious in nature. They also make note of other historical and Godly references that are specifically religious in nature. Ex) Moses with Ten Commandments in hand, in Supreme Court, etc.)




To say our Nation or Government was not founded on Christian principles is absolutely revisionism. To seek a "secular" Government that does not recognize God or His word is an affront to the Lord. It will not invoke blessings but indeed eventual scorn.

Take care:godisgood: