I am leaving this board

Joshua, it is perfectly sound to read only the Bible and go to God. Please just try it. It just works.
And I've gotta say, going on the logic of HAVING to use outside resources? If I wanted to and felt the need to uphold the position, I could prove to you that Jesus wasn't the messiah. I could bring you texts and history books and show you the lineage and guess what? Wasn't even Jewish! The books and resources are there for me to show you. But it doesn't make it the truth.
Studying and learning from other sources is good, but all those are are suggestions, and half are rubbish. The one and only thing that stands is the Bible. And with a pure heart you WILL be given understanding of what it says WITHOUT outside resources.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Gina, why would I want to start that process all over again. I came to the Bible believing that homosexuality was a sin. I spent years studying the issue. I came to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean like lawyers study the law looking for loop holes to justify thier clients actions and not stoping until they find it, even if it isn't the truth???

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:

You mean like lawyers study the law looking for loop holes to justify thier clients actions and not stoping until they find it, even if it isn't the truth???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good answer! Let me say a few words to clarify the way I see this situation. Readers can take it or leave it; just some things to mull over.

Nobody says they hate Joshua. BUT, Joshua is making representations that we all as Baptists believe is sinful and unless I am wrong I get the indication that Joshua is actively practicing his monogamous homosexuality; which means, based on MY Bible and all the church teaching I have grown up with that he is deep in continuous and unrepentent sin. His arguments that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality is just that---an argument. When a person (even a Christian) starts down a path of continuous, unrepentent sin, he/she will start justifying that sin. I have seen it done with adultry. We are now seeing it done with homosexuality. God abhores sin whether it be homosexuality, murder, fornication, adultry or child molesting--if a person is actively practicing any of these (and other) sins without repentence then (1) he is either not a Christian or (2) he is a Christian who is in great risk of punishment from God and possibility even loosing his life. I believe this is what is being referred to when it is mentioned that there is a sin unto death. This means that continual, unrepentent sin will be punished by God (only if the person is one of his children--he only punishes his own---on earth that is) and I think God reaches a point where he feels a person has done enough damage to God's cause "The message of his Son's sacrifice for this and other sins" and he will take that person on home. If I am not mistaken this was Paul's statement.

The bottom line is that nobody should hate Joshua, but we should not be wimps and act as if everything were perfect. NO he is sinning continually and is unrepentent--he is telling other Christians and non-Christians that he is one of us, but it is okay to do this. Love or not, WE SHOULD NOT TOLERATE THIS ACTIVITY OR WE WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE. In my opinion, Joshua should be given an opportunity to repent and obviously he denies he needs to so therefore he should be stripped of his ordination as a Baptist Pastor and removed from the site until he repents. We Christians are becoming soft and tolerant of sins and that is what is wrong with America today. We should care less what Joshua's opinion of homosexuality is, he is wrong and we all know it. Is there anybody else here claiming to be a Christian and thinks that homosexuality is NOT a sin????? If so, now is the time to speak up.
We should ignore both his arguments for homosexuality and his statements about other things in the Bible (such as beating slaves), this is nothing but a smoke-screen to confuse the issue and make us think about that rather than the fact that Joshua lays with a man.
One more thing and I will wrap this up. He claims a monogamous relationship is okay. Does this means he is married? If not, not only is he practicing homosexuality, but he is also practicing fornication! Folks, we had better stand up like Jesus and get mad about sin now. Maybe getting mad will not get Joshua into heaven, but he has obviously already made that choice and it is now time for us to wipe the dust from our feet and go on. If Joshua comes back and asks for forgiveness then we can deal with it at that time. The door will be open, but not for a representative of the Baptist faith openly advocating such a blasphemous lifestyle. (As Forrest Gump would say.....That's all I have to say about that.)

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phillip:

...this is nothing but a smoke-screen to confuse the issue and make us think about that rather than the fact that Joshua lays with a man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Phillip. I don't think we've met. I'm Joshua, a straight baptist minister with a beautiful wife and a wonderful son. I don't know which Joshua you are talking about, but I haven't met anyone by that name on this board who says they are gay.

Joshua

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:


Hi Phillip. I don't think we've met. I'm Joshua, a straight baptist minister with a beautiful wife and a wonderful son. I don't know which Joshua you are talking about, but I haven't met anyone by that name on this board who says they are gay.

Joshua<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I appologize if you did not say you are gay yourself, I must have misread your messages; HOWEVER, if your beliefs are that homosexuality is okay according to the Bible, then all the rest still applies. If I have the WRONG person, I appologize sincerely; but I believe you are the one who claimed homosexuality is okay! No malice here, just going by the Word of God. I appologize to that point.

 

Chris and to all those who amened him

Yes in fact I would put all those whom you mentioned and that the bible mentions in those same blanks.....it goes for us all. NNE BUT NNE has any right to call another NON CHRISTIAN unless that person outright admits they are not a christian. So before ya'll applaud, check out judgement in the bible under fruits....fruits of what?&gt;??? You can't say if someone is a christian by homosexuality...sorry ain't happening.

Sue

 

I have to stand with Sue on this point. This seems to be an area that Baptists struggle in more than most other Christian denomination. Deciding a persons salvation based on works.

Until Next Post, Adam

[ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: flyfree432 ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Joshua, it is perfectly sound to read only the Bible and go to God. Please just try it. It just works.
And I've gotta say, going on the logic of HAVING to use outside resources? If I wanted to and felt the need to uphold the position, I could prove to you that Jesus wasn't the messiah. I could bring you texts and history books and show you the lineage and guess what? Wasn't even Jewish! The books and resources are there for me to show you. But it doesn't make it the truth.
Studying and learning from other sources is good, but all those are are suggestions, and half are rubbish. The one and only thing that stands is the Bible. And with a pure heart you WILL be given understanding of what it says WITHOUT outside resources.
Gina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK Gina, I go to I Corinthians 6:9 and see malakoi and arsenokoitai. I know that former means "soft" and that the latter means "pervert." That's not particularly helpful, since these are the key passages that are used to condemn homosexuality.

At this point, I need to go to an outside source. I dould just pray for revelation about what they mean, but I'm confident that God is more likely to provide that revelation if I do a little leg work.

It turns out that Paul's contemporaries used those words to talk about institutionalized pedophilia and homosexual temple prostitution.

I don't understand why you're resistant to using outside sources in this way.

Joshua

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:


Gina, why would I want to start that process all over again. I came to the Bible believing that homosexuality was a sin. I spent years studying the issue. I came to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin.

Why should I start over?

Also, I don't think it's theologically healthy to just "read the Bible" without using outside resources in cases like this. Fundamentalists certainly don't do that when I point out that according to the Bible God doesn't mind if we beat someone who is our property (as long as they can walk after a couple of days) or that God thinks it's an abomination if we touch or eat an unclean animal.

Joshua<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have but one simple question for you there Rev, What in the world were you studying that
lead you to the conclusion that Homosexuality
is not a sin? By the way, why not call it what it really is, Sodomy. I mean, afterall,
that is what it is.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
I have to stand with Sue on this point. This seems to be an area that Baptists struggle in more than most other Christian denomination. Deciding a persons salvation based on works.

Until Next Post, Adam

[ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: flyfree432 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me be clear about my post. I, too, believe we should not judge a person's salvation. As you will note, I mentioned two scenarios (1) not saved (2) saved but living in continuous and unrepentent sin. I do not think it is our judgment call, nor do we need to make that call, but when a pastor of one of our churches claims that homosexuality is okay, his being saved is not the main issue. It is the false doctrinal preaching or statements under the guise of being a Baptist doctrinal believing preacher. Does this make sense? I am NOT condemning the man, but I do feel his credentials to preach as a Baptist should be revoked--not as punishment, but as an indication that we do not believe this way. I would do the very same thing to a person who claims that adultry is okay, or preaches that idolatry is not a problem. . .
His message violates our doctrinal beliefs. This is not just an issue of old earth vs new earth creation or when does the rapture come before or in the middle of the tribulation. This is preaching that a blasphemous sin is "in his opinion" not a sin at all. Stand UP CHRISTIANS!!!!!!! It does not mean we don't love the man, but we cannot allow him to continue preaching as a Baptist such undoctrinal tripe!

 

First of all, the Bible says we know folks by their fruit. Secondly, not every one who claims to be a Christian is a Christian.

Fruit is product of plant growth. Of course, we are part of Christ, and when we are in Christ, there is growth. As a person grows, sin should become more evident to that person. If a person can live in perpetual sin, as Philip suggests, and not feel God's chastisement, then there is a very serious problem!!!!!

(Mat 7:20 - 23 KJV) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. If any will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

(Heb 12:8 KJV) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

[ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: KeeperOfMyHome ]

 

"If a person can live in perpetual sin, as Joshua suggests, and not feel God's chastisement, then there is a very serious problem!!!!!"

i missed this. When and where did Joshua say that we can live in perpetual sin? I can't find it

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Phillip, it would be disingenuous of my to claim my credentials and not give you the chance to challenge them (and seek their revocation - if you feel so strongly about it).

Here you go:

For my chaplaincy endorsement (the only baptist ministerial credential that comes from a national body).

The Alliance of Baptists
Attn: The Rev. Dr. Stan Hastey
1328 16th Street
Washington, DC 20036

For my ordination:

Parkway Baptist Church
The Rev. Dr. Bob Buchanan
5975 State Bridge Road
Duluth, GA 30097

Feel free to use the following quote: "It is my conviction, as a baptist minister trained in the interpretation of Scripture and committed wholly to the absolute authority of the Bible, that homosexuality is not a sin in any context where heterosexuality would not be considered a sin."

Joshua

 

Amen to that Phillip. It is this type of behaviour that gives not only the baptist's a bad name, but also christian's in general.
There is a so called baptist church down the road from where I live that got tired of worshiping Father God, so they started worshiping mother god. I mean if I don't believe what the JW's are teaching, and I don't, why would I want to go to thier assembley or even start my own in thier name?

Even if we disreguard how much of an abomination this is to God, and we just see it as any other sin. We still do not promote sin. We preach against sodomy, we preach against adultery, we preach against lieing, we preach against drugs, we preach against smoking. We should never endorse sin. If I asked you to buy me a pack of ciggerates, would you? Or would you buy me a bottle of liquor, if I asked?
Food for thought.

 

Oh yea, and for you people who say you think that these types of posts don't show the love of Christ. I give you this:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"
All throughout Matt 23 Jesus railed these pharisees. Out of hate? No! out of love! Yet he didn't nestle up to them and say "now, now, that's ok, it was just bad upbringing."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joshua Willines: It is my conviction, as a baptist minister trained in the interpretation of Scripture and committed wholly to the absolute authority of the Bible, that homosexuality is not a sin in any context where heterosexuality would not be considered a sin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Joshua, let me understand this statement in the light of the Scripture. Bearing in mind that my belief has been, in accordance with fundamental Bible teachings, that any sexual union outside of the bond of marriage (of one man and one woman) is considered a sin! According to your statement above then do we understand it correctly that you finally conceded to the fact that homosexuality is also a sin? Well, it took you a long time but you have gotten around it eventually and you are in agreement with the board. Thank you!

 

"t is the false doctrinal preaching or statements under the guise of being a Baptist doctrinal believing preacher."

There is a slight problem with this- Baptist doctrine differs so much church to church (because Baptist churches are indepentant bodies) that there are only a few docternal stances that I have seen stay the same among all Baptist churches. Homosexuality is not one of them. Perhaps his Baptist church allows this train of thought.

" am NOT condemning the man, but I do feel his credentials to preach as a Baptist should be revoked--not as punishment, but as an indication that we do not believe this way."

YOU do not believe the same way. There may be others in the same boat Joshua is riding in.

"His message violates our doctrinal beliefs. This is preaching that a blasphemous sin is "in his opinion" not a sin at all.

That is what you believe the Bible says. It violates YOUR doctirnal beliefs. Remember to speak for yourself and not everyone else.

"Stand UP CHRISTIANS!!!!!!! It does not mean we don't love the man, but we cannot allow him to continue preaching as a Baptist such undoctrinal tripe!"

In your opinion.

Now my point to this is not to backup what Joshua is saying or defend his beliefs but to show how illogical these arguments have become. PLEASE think about what you say before you say it. PLEASE!

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Sorry Barnabas, no luck. Sine the issue is how God views the relationship, I'm more than willing to argue that a commitment ceremony blessed by a priest/minister/rabbi/imam is suitable grounds for establishing a marriage covenant between two men or two women.

Joshua

Nice try though.

 

I think I have just found a solution to this argument. I'm going to go bang my head against a wall until it all goes away...

Until Next Post, Adam

 

you still didn't answer my question Josh:

Even if we disreguard how much of an abomination this is to God, and we just see it as any other sin. We still do not promote sin. We preach against sodomy, we preach against adultery, we preach against lieing, we preach against drugs, we preach against smoking. We should never endorse sin. If I asked you to buy me a pack of ciggerates, would you? Or would you buy me a bottle of liquor, if I asked?