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Featured I and the Father are one

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Oct 9, 2020.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    ego kai ho patros hen hesmen” (John 10:30). Which literally translated reads: “I and the Father, one we are”.

    Is Jesus here speaking only of “unity of will and purpose” with The Father, as some suppose? That the Greek “hen”, does have this meaning, is clear from the Prayer of Jesus in John chapter 17, where He says, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”. Here Jesus is speaking of the “unity” of believers, with themselves, and in their relation to the Lord, as He and His Father “one”. And the Apostle Paul tells the Philipian Church, “Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind” The precise meaning must be determined from the context where the word is being used.

    We must look at the entire context in which Jesus uses the words: “ego kai ho patros hen hesmen”. In verse 28 Jesus says, "and I give them eternal life, and in no wise shall they perish forever" (Greek text). John 1:4 informs us the Jesus is the “source” of life, “in Him was life”. There is another reading of this verse, which is probably the original. Instead of “ζωὴ ἦν”, (was life, in the imperfect tense); we have “ζωὴ ἐστιν” (is life, the present, continuance tense). Both are from around the 2nd century A.D. The use of the “imperfect” tense in the Greek, does not always speak of “past action”, as in our English “was”, this can be misleading. In the Greek, it does also have the meaning of, “an incomplete action”, one that is still in its course, and not yet completed. It is like saying, was/is. In Acts 3:15, Jesus is called the "archegos of life" (Prince, KJV). The meaning is, “first cause, originator, author”, of all life. It is as the “Author” of all life, that Jesus is able to “give eternal life” to all those who believe in Him for their salvation. This would be impossible if Jesus Himself is not Almighty God, but, as some suppose, a mere created being! Jesus then goes on to say in this verse, “And not anyone shall snatch them out of My hand”. The life of the believer is completely “secure” in the Protective Power of the Lord Jesus Christ. These words spoken by Jesus here, are spoken by Yahweh of His People in Deuteronomy, “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” (32:39). Again, in the Prophet Isaiah we read, “Also henceforth I am He; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?” (43:13). It is very clear from what Jesus says in John 10:28, and what we read from what Yahweh says in these passages in the Old Testament, that He means Absolute Power and Protection and Authority. Revelation 3:7, speaks of just this of Jesus, “...Who opens and no one will shut, Who shuts and no one opens.”. Further to this, in John 10:29, Jesus goes on to say, "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand"

    That the Father was “greater” than Jesus Christ during His Incarnation, is evident from a few passages (Luke 2:52, 24:26; John 5:19, 14:28, 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 2: 7, 9, etc). However, this “greatness” is not in the Essential Nature in the Godhead, where the Three Persons are 100% coequal.

    Verse 30 which follows on from this, is where Jesus speaks of His “Essential Unity” with His father.

    The Greek here is very important. Jesus as the speaker, “I”, distinguishes Himself from “THE Father”, where the definite article in the Greek, “ho [the]” is used with “pater [Father]”. That the Father and Son are NOT one and the same PERSON, is evident from the use of the masculine plural, “hesmen [WE are]”, which is impossible if only ONE PERSON was meant. Then, we have the neuter singular, “hen [one]”, which again shows that ONE PERSON cannot be meant, which would have required the masculine “heis”, which is not the case. The use of the neuter singular “hen”, is to show the “UNITY” of the ESSENCE or NATURE, of God the Father and God the Son.

    The Jews perfectly understood what Jesus meant, as they again took up stones to kill Him (verse 31). And, when Jesus asks them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied: “The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.”. The Jews heard what Jesus said in these verses, and they understood that He was here claiming to be God. The meaning of verse 10 to these Jews, was more than simply a “unity of will and purpose”, because, as God's Representative on earth (which is what Jesus says in verses 34-36), Jesus here actually says that He was also of the same, “Authority and Power” of God. The Jews in the Old Testament, when they had their judges, who administrated on behalf of the Lord, are called “gods”, as in “representing” God on earth. Jesus, as THE Son of God, and Himself God, has a Higher Authority when on earth. This is also understood in chapter 5 of John's Gospel, when Jesus heals a man on the Sabbath Day, and the Jews wanted to kill Him for doing this (16). Jesus responds to their criticism, by saying, “But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work”. That He was not working on His own on the Sabbath, but His own Father (ο πατηρ μου), was also working with Him, on the Sabbath Day! These words enraged the Jews, who responded, “Because of this, therefore, the Jews were seeking the more to kill Him, for not only did He break the sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal to God”. Note that Jesus never objected to the accusations that the Jews made against Him, when they said that He “claimed” to be equal to the Father, and therefore God. If, as some suppose, that Jesus is no more than a “Good Teacher”, or, One Who merely, like the Prophets of the Old Testament, were no more than God’s Representative on earth, as the OT judges and Prophets were, then we can be very sure, that Jesus would have corrected their mistakes. This He never does, because He IS Almighty God.
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    He IS Almighty God.
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    AMEN!!!
     
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    All this to say One God in Three Persons?
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    this is a study on this passage, what is the problem?
     
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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Was that a yes? The Father and I are one essence?
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    I don't understand what you are getting at? This is a indepth study on a very important passage in the Bible, where Jesus claims Deity and Equality with the Father. Why is its length a problem with you? Do you doubt what is said? if you have any valid objections, then share them here
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You sound like Kamala discussing packing the court. I have had it with folks who cannot speak clearly.

    Try posting like this,
    Tell them what you are going to tell them.
    Tell them with supporting evidence
    Tell them what you told them.

    John 10:30 says the Father and Christ are one essence.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    shows your ignorance!
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, SBG still refuses to answer a very simple, yes or no question. So he correctly points out I do not know what point he was trying to make.

    As far as posting with clarity, I submit his post demonstrates a lack of communication skill.

    Did he deny the Father and Christ are one essence? Nope he deflected.
    Does being divine necessarily mean equality in all things? He does not say.

    So much for a study that cannot be questioned.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    is something wrong with you? if you don't like my style, move on. if you don't like with I have written, do your own. but quit putting real dumb comments! :Mad:Rolleyes
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    SBG is still not answering any question, just shouting your questions are real dumb.

    The idea behind the word "one" is sharing a common attribute, such as a purpose or goal, divine essence, and the like. When we evangelize, we are one with Christ because we share a common purpose. We are "one" with Christ in that we are born anew siblings.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since we, those born anew, having been baptized into one body, are diverse members of one body, we are part of one body, the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:12)
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @Van what I would like to know, is how you get the 3rd Person of the Holy Spirit out of @SavedByGrace's study on John 10:30 and context?
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Lets see if you will answer my question? Is the purpose of SBG study of John 10:30 to demonstrate "One God in Three Persons?"
     
  16. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what either of you are trying to say....
     
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  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Actually, ἐσμεν has the smooth breathing mark, not the rough, so it is esmen. However, your translation is correct if overly literal, so carry on.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. @SavedByGrace was giving an explanation as to why Jesus said, "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; . . ." And that it did not detract from His equality with His Father and so would not detract from His equality in the Godhead. That is how I understood his commentary.
     
    #18 37818, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    So you believe John 10:30 indicates the Father and Christ are 100% equal in all things? Now if the Father is greater in some things, what are they?

    The Son acts in subordination to the Father, while being equal in divinity, essence, and purpose.
     
    #19 Van, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    and you are quite right
     
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