I believe in predestination and free will.....??

I'm making a note to myself to come back to this thread when I have more time to type it all out.

It's early, though, so I need to make the beds, start the fires, and drink a bit of carrot juice to wake me up.

Good morning, everyone

 

What works of Calvin have you read?

If you have read Calvin's Institutes you would know that Calvin realized the limits of his own theology. I do not find that the Bible ever declares such a thing. God's word is eternal, calvinmism is not. Seems that Calvin was much more humble about his own theology than many calvinists I read.

However a number of calvinists I read, tend to limit God in his sovereignty simply because they refuse to believe what the Bible says and tend to interpret what seemingly agrees with them and leave the verses behind that they do not understand and do not seem to fit their theology. If they were not so dogmatic about limiting God's sovereignty, listening to their supporters and study their Bible they might find that their view of God's sovereignty extends far beyond what they teach. However that kind of practice is typical of anyone who holds to a pet theology that fits their own parameters instead of them fitting God's choice of how He reveals himself. It is called eisegesis.

I have yet to see one of them give an interpretation/explanation in light of its historical context of Is. 45:7; Amos 3:6 and Lam. 3:38 .

 

Is your skin orange yet?

 

LOL! No, I don't drink that much of it.

Here is an interesting link, which refutes Calvinism. It only sums up some of what I believe. The rest will take much more time than posting a link.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/mystery_of_christ.htm

 

Do you specialize in asking the same questions over andf over/I've told you before.

I have asked you to furnish me with a specific quote regarding this but all you have are excuses.Stop you're nagging and clean up your act.

Yeah,yeah,yeah.You pop off with the same ole' stuff,time after time.

Non-Cals are the ones who limit their understanding of God's sovereignty,i.e. -- The Lord can do everything.But he dare not try to mess with my free-will!"BTW,no one can limit God's sovereignty because ...He's sovereign!

Calvinists are in the habit of following the Bible

Benjamin had you nailed to the wall on this a while back.Find new material.

 

:tonofbricks: Try this: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html

 

As Rippon said TULIP is a response to the Remonstrants, which I gues you could call a response to the reformation. Anyway, they are worth checking out in comparison:

Remonstrants, 1610

Article 1.

[Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article 2.

[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]

That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Article 3.

[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]

That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
Article 4.

[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, Irresistible Grace]

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).
Article 5.

[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]

That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.

 

I've never attempted to write this all out. Usually when discussing this, I'm speaking among friends. Please excuse my feeble attempt...

One thing I find common among believers is the belief that "all the promises in the Book are mine". Wrong. The law was given to the Jew. Most of the Bible was written to the Jews and all by Jews.

[Rom 9:4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

The Gentile was promised nothing, until Christ...

[John 1:11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[John 1:12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[John 1:13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

When the Apostle Paul speaks, he generally uses the words "we" and "ye". In context you will find that most times that is referring to the Jews (the "we") and the Gentiles (the "ye"). Examples:

"We" or "Us":

[Eph 1:1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[Eph 1:2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Eph 1:3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[Eph 1:4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[Eph 1:5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[Eph 1:6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[Eph 1:7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[Eph 1:8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[Eph 1:9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[Eph 1:10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[Eph 1:11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[Eph 1:12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

"Ye":

[Eph 1:13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[Eph 1:14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[Eph 1:15] Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
[Eph 1:16] Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
[Eph 1:17] That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
[Eph 1:18] The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

A better, stronger example of "we" and "ye":

[Eph 2:10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
[Eph 2:11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[Eph 2:12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[Eph 2:13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Then there is the imposed blindness of Israel (of the which I, as a Gentile, am truly grateful):

[Rom 11:7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[Rom 11:8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

and:

[Rom 11:28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[Rom 11:29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

[Rom 9:10] And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
[Rom 9:11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

In conclusion:

[Rom 11:25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[Rom 11:26] And so *all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[Rom 11:27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[Rom 11:28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[Rom 11:29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[Rom 11:30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:


Try it one of these times----read with the "we" and the "ye".


*Bold mine

 

One last clarification before I run off to make chicken pot pie....

We give out the Gospel to any and all. We do not discriminate.

 

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

How many believed (pistis, had faith)? All those who had been appointed (assigned) eternal life. What is the causative agent here? Do they have faith because they were appointed, are were they appointed because they had faith?

According to THIS passage, the "assigning" of God, was the causative agent, which then caused the people to have faith, when they heard the word of God preached.

Let me give you the advice of a wise man:

Act 5:38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail;
Act 5:39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!"

I try not to mock or belittle opposing theologies, unless something is very defined in scripture: you might find out you are wrong, and were mocking God...

 

Sorry but this is wrong, brother. You can't stop reading there...{edited out my bad attitude}

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

To summarize: Paul just said that "True Israel" has NOTHING to do with blood lineage. He goes on to point out Esau, who was of Abraham, but NOT Israel.

The gentile is still promised nothing. Only those who are "grafted in" to Israel, and have become of the "seed of Abraham" are promised anything. This was EXACTLY the same as in the Old Testament...

Exo 12:48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it

We actually have scriptural examples, such as Ruth, of Gentiles who "became" Israelites. There is NO distinction between the Church and Israel, and there never has been.

This is improper exegesis, friend. {edited out my bad attitude} Paul is writing a letter. Do you realize how ridiculous it would be, if I wrote you a letter, saying "you", and someone on the other side said "oh, no, that does not refer to YOU {the person to whom I wrote the letter} it refers to the Zulu nation". That is really forcing something upon the text. Since this is a letter TO someone, the "you" must be interpreted just like any other letter since the dawn of creation: the Church in Ephesus, many of whom were Israelite by blood, and many of whom were former gentiles. The "we" refers to the entirety of the Body of Christ (which is synonymous with Israel), which Ephesus has now become partakers of...

Again "we" refers to everyone in the Body of Christ. Paul DOES then go on to elaborate to the gentiles: not to a bloodline, but instead referring to UNCIRCUMCISED peoples: NOT referring to those who had converted to Judaism before becoming Christians.

If you fail to interpret "Israel" in the context of the definition Paul gives in Romans 9, you will continue to fall into error. There is, and only is, and only ever was, ONE people of God> the Body of Christ, also called Israel.

 

Can you show scripture that definitively proves the election of Gentiles? With out it then why would you assume Gentiles are elect?
MB

 

I don't know about him, but there is scripture that definitively says it is not ethnic Israel.

 

havensdad, you are strong in argument, but your approach is lacking, and pious.

 

My apologies. I do not mean to come off like a jerk. I guess I have just grown weary of these debates.

Again, bro, I am sorry. I have edited my post to be "nicer".

 

Apology accepted and thank you.

~Sister Spinach~

As a side note, because the Bible is open for interpretation, it could go almost any way that one wants to read it. What it all comes down to is whether or not we preach the Gospel to everyone. It's up to God to save. It our job to tell. That's really what matters.

 

The above statement is unmitigated nonsense. The promise of a redeemer was made before there was any Jew or Gentile. A little Biblical lesson is in order.

"We may perhaps wonder: After Adam and Eve sinned why did not God immediately destroy them and begin anew? God, who created man in His own image, was not willing that the crown of His creation perish. The Holy Triune God, who embodies all righteousness, could not abandon mankind to the fate he deserved; that would have given a victory to Satan, the embodiment of all evil. Therefore for God to destroy Adam and Eve and began anew would be contrary to His nature.

God in His omniscience knew before He created that Eve would be tempted to rebellion and that Adam would of his own free choice join in that rebellion. We may well ask: Why? If God knew that the crown of His creation would rebel against Him why did He create or why did He give the first family freedom of choice. This is a question that exceeds our ability to answer.

Foreseeing the disobedience, the fall, of Adam and Eve. God the Father, before the foundation of the world, foreknew and chose, out of the mass of humanity, [Before there were Jew and Gentile.] a people to be His own [Ephesians 1:4]. Where holiness demanded wrath [Romans 1:18] love provided mercy [John 3:16; Ephesians 2:4-6]. Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound [Romans 5:20, KJV] and God the Father through His Sovereign Grace has done for His elect what we could never do, He made a way for the reconciliation of His people. We see the beginning of the Grace of God in time immediately following the rebellion of the first family.

After Adam and Eve sinned they did two things:

[1] They attempted to make a covering for their nakedness, their sin, by aprons of fig leaves.

Genesis 3:7, KJV
7. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

[2] They attempted to hide from God.

Genesis 3:8, KJV
8. And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

In their state of innocence their nakedness was innocent. After they sinned their nakedness for some reason became symbolic of their guilt. Notice also that the cover they provided themselves was insufficient. Man’s effort to atone [or cover] their sin will always be insufficient.

After Adam and Eve sinned God did three things:

[1.] He took the initiative in restoring the relationship that Adam had broken through sin; He sought out Adam and Eve. God always takes the initiative in the Salvation of His elect.

Genesis 3:9, KJV
9. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

[2.] He provided a cover for their nakedness, an atonement for their sin.

Genesis 3:21, KJV
21. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

God made them coats of skin as a covering for their sin, skin that required the shedding of innocent blood, the blood of animals. Why is the shedding of blood required for the remission of sin? The penalty for sin is death. The life is in the blood.

Leviticus 17:11, KJV
11. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

However, this atonement or covering, this sacrifice, was only provisional, foreshadowing the perfect sacrifice that was to come. In time God the Father through His Sovereign Grace would do for His elect what they could never do for themselves, He would made us accepted in the beloved [Ephesians 1:6, KJV].

[3.] God made the first promise recorded in Scripture of that perfect sacrifice to come. Speaking to Satan God states:

Genesis 3:15, KJV
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is the first recorded promise of God regarding the redemption of His people. There was no Jew, there was no Gentile. There was only His people. Note that this promise or covenant, is unconditional. How would that redemption be accomplished and at what cost? The Bible, God’s written revelation of Himself to mankind, records the story of the outworking of God’s Grace, the story of God’s purpose of redemption on the stage of world history.

We noted that in Genesis 3:15 God gives the initial promise in Scripture of the coming redeemer. Since God in His omniscience foreknew the rebellion of the first family we must surmise that the Triune God had already instituted His purpose in the salvation of His elect. That divine purpose instituted in eternity past we call the Covenant of Grace.

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect through regeneration by the Holy Spirit and union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God. During his earthly ministry Jesus Christ expressed this truth by the following simple statements:

John 5:21 KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 10:26-29, KJV
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."

 

If it has nothing to do with blood lineage then why is it only those descendants of Jacob who are the lineage of Jesus Christ? The Jews were chosen as a people through which Jesus Christ would come.

No matter how much grafting Gentiles are adopted and never will be of the seed of Abraham. They will have the same inheritance as if they were Abraham's seed. Yet Gentiles are warned not to boast because those Jews broken off the vine can be grafted in again.

Which proves that election was not required for Salvation.

Speculation at best. There is nothing that would prove this theory at all even though Paul was chosen to be a light unto the Gentiles most of where the man preached were synagogages. Jews were not of the habit to allow Gentiles inside there probably were very few Gentiles that Paul wrote to. The term we could have just as easily been for Paul's brother Jews.

I believe we are warned about claiming to be a Jew, and about those who claimed to be but aren't.
MB

 

This verse in all scriptures was translated and then Gramar was applied to it. Since the rules of grammar have only existed for the last two centuries
Act 13:48 from the greens interlinear is read this way straight from the Greek translation.
"Hearing and the nations rejoiced and glorfied the word of the Lord And believed as many as were appointed to life eternal."
since this is the correct rendering I would say they believed first.

Because of this error in translation Calvinist believe they have found support for being appointed to Salvation before faith.

What a miss application of scripture. The truth is Calvinism is failing that should tell us something.

If I were you I'd pay close attention to it. Especially if you are unable to prove your own doctrine.
MB

 

This has nothing to do with election or salvation. The prophecies of the Old Testament said that the Messiah would be of the line of David: that is a completely separate issue.

That is NOT what Paul says. Who is right? You, or Paul?

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Dispensationalists would like the change the "no" in "no distinction" into "great" (i.e. "great distinction"). But Christ bestows His riches the same upon all... there is NO distinction.

Which proves you don't understand election. Those who became circumcised into "Israel" were elect, regardless of their bloodline, just as today. The chosen are determined by God, according to scripture, irrespective of race.

And since we see in acts that "all who were ordained to eternal life" have faith, we see that faith is not the determining factor, but rather the means by which God effects his election.

A distinction never made by the Bible. Just one more "tradition of man" added on to the word of God, so heavily condemned by Jesus.

This is not a theory btw. It is what the text actually says, with no added inference.It is called "literal interpretation". You might try it sometime. :laugh:

Where, EXACTLY might that be? Could you show us this scripture?