I Corinthians-- Tongues and Prophecy Continue

There is good scriptural evidence from I Corinthians that tongues and prophecy will continue.
The following is from I Corinthians 13.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
(NKJV)
Here we see something about the timing of the coming of the perfect. We see that when it happens, Paul will experience.
What is Paul like before the coming of the perfect in comparison to after it?
1. His speech is like a child's.
2. His understanding is like a child's.
What is Paul like after the coming of the perfect.
- He is like a man who has put away childish things.
Before the coming of the perfect, we see as in a mirror, dimly. But after the coming of the perfect, we see face to face.
Some people teach that the perfect, in this passage, is the completion of the New Testament canon. However, this does not fit the context. Did Paul experience the completion of the canon? Did the completion of the canon make Paul's understanding before the completion of the canon seem childish? No. Paul was dead when the canon was completed. Besides, it makes little sense to say that Paul's understanding of God was childish before the completion of the canon, BECAUSE MUCH OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON CONTAINS PAUL'S UNDERSTANDING OF DOCTRINE.
That's like saying if we gathered together a 'canon' of kindergarteners understanding of astrophysics, we would have an adult understanding of it.
Clearly, the perfect must be something that Paul will experience. It must be something so great that even Paul's knowledge of spiritual things at the time of his writing I Corinthians will seem childish in comparison. It is something that will cause believers not to know in part, but to know as we are known. Paul is awaiting a great transformation to take place, something so great it will make even the understanding he had at that time seem childish.
Let us consider something John wrote that awaits us in the future.
I John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
In the future, we will be manifested as sons of God. We will be made like Christ. Christ was incredibly powerful after His resurrection. He was able to appear and disappear. He ascended into heaven. We will be made like Jesus.
Paul wrote of this in Romans, describing it as the manifestations of the sons of God.
Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Now, the creation is in the bondage of corruption, waiting for something to happen. The sons of God are going to be manifested.
Jesus also spoke of those who were resurrected as the children of God.
Luke 20:36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
In I Corinthians 13, Paul looks forward to the coming of the perfect. Repeatedly, Paul looks forward to the return of Christ and the resurrection in his writings.
Notice something about the order of the way things are discussed in I Corinthians 13 in the list below. Sometimes, Paul will make reference to a number of things in an epistle, only to explain them in greater detail later in the epistle.
I Corinthians 13:8 tongues and prophecy------------------> I Corinthians 14 tongues and prophecy
I Corinthians 13:10 that which is perfect ------------------> I Corinthians 15 the state of the believer in the resurrection
It makes much more sense to interpret 'the perfect' to refer to something Paul explains in greater detail later in his epistle rather than to read into it 'New Testament canon' with no evidence to support this idea.
In chapter 15, Paul argues that Christians will be raised from the dead. He compares the body of a believer to a seed of grain that is has to be planted. This is in line with the concept of 'perfect' because 'teleos' in Greek refers to what is mature or complete. In our death, we will be like a seed of grain that looks dried up and dead. But in the resurrection, we will be something complete, mature, 'perfect' as King James English puts it.
Paul writes of the resurrection in I Corinthians 15:22.
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
(NKJV)
Here, we see Paul teaches that the resurrection will occur at Christ's coming. It makes sense that believers will experience 'the perfect' at the coming of the Lord, at the resurrection. As John teaches, we will be like Jesus. Is there anything else that a believer can experience that can better be described with the word 'perfect'?
Doesn't it make sense that if we are perfect, that our knowledge in this life will seem childish, and so will our speech? Even Paul's great knowledge will seem childish to him when the perfect comes, when he becomes like Jesus in a greater way, when he is manifested as a son of God at the resurrection.
Considering all these facts, let us look at a statement of Paul made in the opening of the letter of I Corinthians. First of all, notice who Paul addresses the letter to.
I Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
(NKJV)
He addresses it to the church at Corinth, and to us, too.
Now, notice what he tells them about spiritual gifts.
I Corinthians 1:4-7
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(NKJV)
Notice in verse 7, that Paul did not want the Corinthians to come short in any spiritual gift while they were waiting for the Lord Jesus to be revealed from heaven. What spiritual gifts did he have in mind? Well, he wanted them to lack NO spiritual gift. And Paul would later explain the gifts he was thinking about in chapters 12 through 14. Speaking in tongues was among those spiritual gifts. So was prophecy. Paul did not want them to lack any of these gifts.
What was the time frame during which Paul did not want them to lack the spiritual gifts? While they were waiting for the revealing of Christ. It would seem here, that Paul believed Jesus could come back during his initial readers' lifetimes. There is no talk here of gifts ceasing before the Lord's return.
It makes sense to interpret 'the perfect' in chapter 13 in line with the principles Paul teaches throughout the epistle. While waiting for Jesus to come back, Paul did not want the churches to lack any spiritual gifts. When we see Jesus, we will be made like him. I Corinthians 15:52 teaches that we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. When we are changed, we will experience those things Paul describes. We will know as we are known. Paul himself will consider his great understanding of the mysteries of God to be as childish compared to what he will be like after the resurrection. The resurrection is something that Paul himself will experience.
So clearly, it makes sense to consider the coming of the perfect to be the very thing Paul talks about earlier and later in his epistle, and not something does not mention at all in the context of the book. Paul talks about the coming of the Lord and the resurrection that will accompany it. Clearly, this is something Paul looks forward to in his epistles. It is something that will transform him and make him 'perfect' or complete and mature, and something that will make us perfect also.
Even so come now, Lord Jesus.


Copyright 2007 Paul L. Hudson, Jr.

 

Reposting to recover lost formatting--Part 1

There is good scriptural evidence from I Corinthians that tongues and prophecy will continue.

The following is from I Corinthians 13.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
(NKJV)

Here we see something about the timing of the coming of the perfect. We see that when it happens, Paul will experience.

What is Paul like before the coming of the perfect in comparison to after it?
1. His speech is like a child's.
2. His understanding is like a child's.

What is Paul like after the coming of the perfect.
- He is like a man who has put away childish things.

Before the coming of the perfect, we see as in a mirror, dimly. But after the coming of the perfect, we see face to face.

Some people teach that the perfect, in this passage, is the completion of the New Testament canon. However, this does not fit the context. Did Paul experience the completion of the canon? Did the completion of the canon make Paul's understanding before the completion of the canon seem childish? No. Paul was dead when the canon was completed. Besides, it makes little sense to say that Paul's understanding of God was childish before the completion of the canon, BECAUSE MUCH OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON CONTAINS PAUL'S UNDERSTANDING OF DOCTRINE.

That's like saying if we gathered together a 'canon' of kindergarteners understanding of astrophysics, we would have an adult understanding of it.

Clearly, the perfect must be something that Paul will experience. It must be something so great that even Paul's knowledge of spiritual things at the time of his writing I Corinthians will seem childish in comparison. It is something that will cause believers not to know in part, but to know as we are known. Paul is awaiting a great transformation to take place, something so great it will make even the understanding he had at that time seem childish.

Let us consider something John wrote that awaits us in the future.

I John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

In the future, we will be manifested as sons of God. We will be made like Christ. Christ was incredibly powerful after His resurrection. He was able to appear and disappear. He ascended into heaven. We will be made like Jesus.

Paul wrote of this in Romans, describing it as the manifestations of the sons of God.

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Now, the creation is in the bondage of corruption, waiting for something to happen. The sons of God are going to be manifested.

Jesus also spoke of those who were resurrected as the children of God.

Luke 20:36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

In I Corinthians 13, Paul looks forward to the coming of the perfect. Repeatedly, Paul looks forward to the return of Christ and the resurrection in his writings.

Notice something about the order of the way things are discussed in I Corinthians 13 in the list below. Sometimes, Paul will make reference to a number of things in an epistle, only to explain them in greater detail later in the epistle.

I Corinthians 13:8 tongues and prophecy------------------> I Corinthians 14 tongues and prophecy
I Corinthians 13:10 that which is perfect ------------------> I Corinthians 15 the state of the believer in the resurrection

It makes much more sense to interpret 'the perfect' to refer to something Paul explains in greater detail later in his epistle rather than to read into it 'New Testament canon' with no evidence to support this idea.

In chapter 15, Paul argues that Christians will be raised from the dead. He compares the body of a believer to a seed of grain that is has to be planted. This is in line with the concept of 'perfect' because 'teleos' in Greek refers to what is mature or complete. In our death, we will be like a seed of grain that looks dried up and dead. But in the resurrection, we will be something complete, mature, 'perfect' as King James English puts it.

Paul writes of the resurrection in I Corinthians 15:22.

15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
(NKJV)

Here, we see Paul teaches that the resurrection will occur at Christ's coming. It makes sense that believers will experience 'the perfect' at the coming of the Lord, at the resurrection. As John teaches, we will be like Jesus. Is there anything else that a believer can experience that can better be described with the word 'perfect'?


Copyright 2007 Paul L. Hudson, Jr.

 

Repost to restore formatting--Part 2

Doesn't it make sense that if we are perfect, that our knowledge in this life will seem childish, and so will our speech? Even Paul's great knowledge will seem childish to him when the perfect comes, when he becomes like Jesus in a greater way, when he is manifested as a son of God at the resurrection.

Considering all these facts, let us look at a statement of Paul made in the opening of the letter of I Corinthians. First of all, notice who Paul addresses the letter to.

I Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
(NKJV)

He addresses it to the church at Corinth, and to us, too.

Now, notice what he tells them about spiritual gifts.
I Corinthians 1:4-7
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(NKJV)

Notice in verse 7, that Paul did not want the Corinthians to come short in any spiritual gift while they were waiting for the Lord Jesus to be revealed from heaven. What spiritual gifts did he have in mind? Well, he wanted them to lack NO spiritual gift. And Paul would later explain the gifts he was thinking about in chapters 12 through 14. Speaking in tongues was among those spiritual gifts. So was prophecy. Paul did not want them to lack any of these gifts.

What was the time frame during which Paul did not want them to lack the spiritual gifts? While they were waiting for the revealing of Christ. It would seem here, that Paul believed Jesus could come back during his initial readers' lifetimes. There is no talk here of gifts ceasing before the Lord's return.

It makes sense to interpret 'the perfect' in chapter 13 in line with the principles Paul teaches throughout the epistle. While waiting for Jesus to come back, Paul did not want the churches to lack any spiritual gifts. When we see Jesus, we will be made like him. I Corinthians 15:52 teaches that we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. When we are changed, we will experience those things Paul describes. We will know as we are known. Paul himself will consider his great understanding of the mysteries of God to be as childish compared to what he will be like after the resurrection. The resurrection is something that Paul himself will experience.

So clearly, it makes sense to consider the coming of the perfect to be the very thing Paul talks about earlier and later in his epistle, and not something does not mention at all in the context of the book. Paul talks about the coming of the Lord and the resurrection that will accompany it. Clearly, this is something Paul looks forward to in his epistles. It is something that will transform him and make him 'perfect' or complete and mature, and something that will make us perfect also.

Even so come now, Lord Jesus.

Copyright 2007 Paul L. Hudson, Jr.

 

I can see why some would say that it is the eternal state, the delivering up of the kingdom to God, perhaps the same thing as Christ becoming all in all. But since Paul describes the transformation that will happen to the believer at the resurrection, this seems to me to be a more reasonable interpretation. He was looking forward to the hope of the resurrection ever since he became a Christian.

This is a strawman argument. No one is saying that 'telion' refers to Christ in this passage. The 'coming of Christ' would be a 'nueter' concept in English. When people make arguments like this, it indicates to me that they are not scholars of the Greek language (I am not.) I asked a Greek scholar about this and he was able to show me examples from scripture of where pronouns do not always match in gender to what they refer to. But that is beside the point.

Paul is talking about the coming of the perfect. No one says that 'perfect' means Christ. I do believe 'the perfect' that Paul is talking about occurs at or after the coming of Christ. But that does not mean that I am saying that 'the perfect' in this passage refers to Christ, and it certainly does not mean that 'the perfect' has to agree with Christ. What you are arguing is grammatical nonsense. You can get away with it with some people just because you are talking about a language with grammatical features they are unfamiliar with.

>
The "Word" was completed by the end of the first century.
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The faith had been delivered before it was written down in scripture. Paul had the revelation of the mystery. It had not been completely recorded as scripture at that time, but he had the revelation of it.

Jude says to contend for 'the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.' The faith had already been delivered, in the past, once for all. Yet, Jude continues on to write more lines of inspired scripture according to this verse, and, if many commentators are correct, other books like Revelation and possible some of the epistles of John, were not yet completed.

The 'word' was complete before the canon was complete. The apostles had the revelation and delivered it orally. So this argument about the word being complete after the last 'amen' was penned in Revelation does not hold water.

Plus, you have to deal with the two witnesses prophesying in the end of time, and Babylon having the blood of prophets in it. Ephesians 4:11 teaches that prophets are given until the church comes to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

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God used people to write scripture. Paul clearly shows that when the perfect comes, his own understanding, speech, and knowledge will change. He does not say that he will be dead in the grave.

13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And it does not make sense that if Paul's revelation of the 'faith that was once for all delivered to the saints' were so childish, that if it were written down, the deceased apostle Paul would suddenly become like a man in his knowledge and understanding.

Your interpretation does not fit the context, and your statements do not even fit the historical record. There are references to spiritual gifts in history after this timeframe. The gift of prophecy was still widely accepted in the middle of the second century and until much later.

Paul speaks of love in chapter 13. He is still finishing up this theme through the end of the chapter. That is 'another subject' and it is clearly in context. Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of 'spiritual gifts', with a useful lesson on the importance of love in the middle of it. Spiritual gifts must be used with love.

Paul does not limit his discussion to 'revelation' in chapter 14. He mentions other spiritual gifts and practices like singing psalms, having a doctrine (teaching), and prayer. Paul does mention 'revelation' twice in chapter 14, but in verse 26, he lists it as a separate category of spiritual gift expression than tongues and interpretation. Later in the chapter, he mentions 'revelation' in regard to the ministry of prophecy. So your line of reasoning does not stand up to a close study of scripture.

When the perfect comes, it will replace 'in part.' Now prophecy and knowledge are 'in part.' When the perfect come, prophecy, knowledge, understanding and speech will be made complete. Paul's knowledge will be made complete. Paul's understanding will be made completed. And presumably, so will ours. So the perfect not only effects revelation, it also effects speech, and knowledge. The state of the believer at the coming of the perfect is something that will make Paul's life and ministry seem childish by comparison.

Paul does not teach that prophecy and tongues will end before faith and hope. So there is nothing to back your argument up with. It is just your own theory.

Sure, miracles were signs of apostles, but not only apostles. Old Testament prophets did miracles. Two members of the seven worked miracles. Some 'regular' church people did miracles.

I Corinthians
12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

I know of two interpretations of this passage. One is that the signs of the apostle were the sufferings or the perserverence in these sufferings, and that these signs of an apostle were accompanied by the supernatural signs.

The other is that supternatural signs are signs of an apostle. Just use some logic. Scripture shows that non-apostles did miracles, too. So if supernatural signs are signs of an apostle, then it stands to reason that if someone is an apostle, he will do signs. It does not stand to reason that if someone does signs, he is an apostle. So if you think there are no apostles, it does not stand to reason that there will be no more signs.

And since Ephesians 4 teaches that apostles are given to the church till the church reaches the full measure of the stature of Christ, there is still a while left to go.

When the Gospel was first preached among the Hebrews, it was confirmed by signs and wonders. Let us look here for a Biblical pattern of how God can operate when the Gospel is introduced among a new people group, particularly Israelites. Even among the Gentiles, according to Romans 15, Paul did signs and wonders when he proclaimed the Gospel of Christ.

What is really illogical is to say, "If those people did signs and wonders, then that means no one else ever will."

I have read some people try to take this verse, and irrationally argue that since the past tense is used saying that these men did signs and wonders, that signs and wonders will not be done again. I notice that salvation was spoken and confirmed --past tenses. If the word was 'spoken' in the past, does that mean it will not be spoken in modern times? Of course not.

In fact, the apostle Paul told us to immitate him. He did not tell us to think that if he did something, no one else would ever be able to do it again in the future.

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The scripture never teaches that this was the 'primary' purpose of spiritual gifts. It is clear that this was not the primary reason Paul had in mind for spiritual gifts in I Corinthians 12. In this chapter, these gifts, including healing, miracles, tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy, were all given to edify the church.

The point Paul draws out of this is that tongues is a sign for them that believe not. He then gives an illustration of an unbeliever or unlearned (he does not specify the person is a Jew) who hears all speak in tongues in church and responds in unbelief.

So we see the principle Paul draws out. Paul quotes a verse about God 'speaking' to Israel through the voice of men of other languages. Their captors shouted at them to march, etc. in a foreign, non-Hebrew tongue. Even though God 'spoke' to the through other languages, they did not believe. Therefore, tongues is a sign to them that believe not. They can read the scripture that says that even though God speaks through men of other tongues, this people will not believe, and see it confirmed in their own lives. They see it in their own lives when they respond to tongues with unbelief.

Stick with Paul's argument in context.

Furthermore, if you believe tongues was a sign for the Jews, there are still Jews today, so there is no reason to think tongues has ceased. In fact, the Jews are still in a time period where many Jews are blind to the Gospel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. God is still dealing with the Jews. God did not suddenly stop dealing with Israel in 70 AD like a lot of the people who promote this theory you are talking about believe.

And, if you want to try to create a convoluted argument means that tongues was a sign of 70 AD, that still is not an argument that tongues have ceased. Tongues functions as a SIGN to unbelievers. But tongues has another function. To the church, with interpretation, it serves for EDIFICATION. So it has two roles. One is as a sign. The other is for edificaiton. This is clear from I Corinthians 14.

I don't follow your reasoning in including the Gospel quote, unless you are trying to say that anyone who seeks a sign is evil and adulterous. Are you saying that it is evil and adulterous to seek the 'sign' of the Gospel. (I don't see where scripture calls the Gospel a 'sign' per se.)

It is also not logical to say that anyone who seeks a sign is evil and adulterous. An evil and adulterous generation sought a sign to be done, but holy and righteous apostles also sought signs to be done in Acts 4. If the evil and adulterous seek a sign, it does not logically follow that all who seek a sign are evil and adulterous.

The passage in I Corinthians says nothing about the destruction of the temple. Your interpretation is just plain eisegesis, reading ideas into the text.

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