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I Have a Question About Hell and Eternity

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by RedemptionAddiction, Feb 24, 2007.

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  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This is a scurrilous accusation. I read the Greek and translate it every day. I translate all day on Friday. I am perfectly satisfied with what the Greek is saying.


    Fine. Then deal with the word "can" in your verse.

    But even if the word "can" were not in there, I know of no translation that uses "annhihilate," the meaning you want. According to the Microsoft Bookshelf '98 definition:

    de·stroyed​
    , de·stroy·ing, de·stroys verb, transitive

    1.​
    To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.

    2.​
    To tear down or break up; demolish. See synonyms at ruin.

    3.​
    To do away with; put an end to: "In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness" (George Bernard Shaw).

    4.​
    To kill: destroy a rabid dog.

    5.​
    To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.

    6.
    To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

    Greek poetry? Hebrew text for Matt 10 being translated?

    I think you are getting lost in your own story telling.

    As I said - I think the Bible translations are correct.




    Actually I am arguing that the Hebrew view of Hell as seen in the Hebrew text of the OT (another quirk I have is to use Hebrew to show what the Hebrew view is...) does not match the pagan view that was later inserted into Christianity and and adopted by some Jewish groups in the NT age.



    I am simply showing the pagan source for the myths inserted into Christian doctrines during the dark ages.



    Coming up.



    Not only those references - but pro-Catholic historians who are themselves practicing Catholics and best-selling authors admit to this pagan insertion for RC teaching.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This is a scurrilous accusation. I read the Greek and translate it every day. I translate all day on Fridays. I am perfectly satisfied with what the Greek is saying. I am also fully aware of what are called "Hebraisms" in the Greek NT.

    I'm forced to conclude that you know no language besides English, since you fail to understand how the culture and literature of one language enters another, in particular how the Jews who wrote almost all of the NT let their Jewishness come through in their Greek writing.

    Still playing your one-string banjo? Fine. Then deal with the word "can" in your verse.

    But even if the word "can" were not in there, I know of no translation that uses "annhihilate," the meaning you want. According to the Microsoft Bookshelf '98 definition of destroy, the word you keep harping on, it means much more besides annhilate, and can mean simply "kill":


    de·stroyed
    , de·stroy·ing, de·stroys verb, transitive




    1.
    To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.


    2.
    To tear down or break up; demolish. See synonyms at ruin.


    3.
    To do away with; put an end to: "In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness" (George Bernard Shaw).


    4.
    To kill: destroy a rabid dog.


    5.
    To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.


    6.
    To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.




    Sigh. I never said a word about Greek poetry. With your attitude (and evident lack of knowledge about any kind of poetry), if I translated a haiku poem by Basho into English, you'd probably say, "That's a neat American poem." :rolleyes:

    I think you are ignoring the facts. We'll agree to disagree.

    I'm not interested in "practicing Catholics" or "best-selling authors." I want genuine scholarship.
     
    #42 John of Japan, Mar 7, 2007
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  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Oh, this is rich! You are quoting from a website that uses The Satanic Bible as a primary source, and you expect us to acknowledge it as scholarship??? Shazzam!! :laugh:
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    So where is the smoking gun? Where is a single church father who taught annihilation?? Which church father quotes Plato?

    On the contrary, the church fathers taught the reality of Hell as a place of punishment, not annihilation. Note this from Chrysostom: "At that rate thou wilt deny that even the devil is punished For, “Depart,” He says, “into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41.) Now if there be no hell, then neither is he punished. But if he is punished, it is plain that we shall also. For we also have disobeyed, even if it be not in the same way. And how comest thou not to be afraid to speak such daring things? For when thou sayest that God is merciful, and doth not punish, if He should punish he will be found in thy case to be no longer merciful" (from Homily 25 on Romans 14:1-2)

    Even Origen, the noted heretic, wrote: "For perhaps as those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts — according as they shall be deemed worthy — some in the place which is called 'hell,' others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions; so also from those places, as if dying there, if the expression can be used, do they come down from the 'upper world' to this “hell.” For that 'hell' to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world, is, I believe, on account of this distinction, called the “lower hell” by Scripture, as is said in the book of Psalms: 'Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell'" (Origen de Principiis, Book 4, Ch. 1).

    Again, Augustine, Exposition on the Book Psalms, on Ps. 6: "That rich man, of whom the Lord speaks, who saw Lazarus in rest, but bewailed himself in torments, confessed in hell, yea so as to wish even to have his brethren warned, that they might keep themselves from sin, because of the punishment which is not believed to be in hell. Although therefore to no purpose, yet he confessed that those torments had deservedly lighted upon him; since he even wished his brethren to be instructed, lest they should fall into the same."
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [Of hell] "The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an 'improving myth'. The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers"
    [...]
    "Origen, however, was posthumously condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as a heretic for his compassionate belief that all souls would eventually be redeemed. The Roman Church required all Christians to believe that some souls would suffer in hell forever, while the faithful would enjoy eternal salvation. This is the one doctrine on the afterlife which Celsus regards as distinctively Christian. He writes:

    'Now it will be wondered how men so desperate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishment and rewards, exceeding anything the philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous of the reward of the blessed) could have imagined' "
    Jesus Mysteries [buy] | Info/Quotes, p90
    "In the King James Version of the Bible, the Hebrew word sheol and Greek word hades (two very different concepts) are both generally translated as Hell."
    www.religioustolerance.org
    Plutarch (46-125CE) and the early Christians viewed hell as a symbolic place. It was only over time that Christianity became the literalistic belief system that it is now, initially all of its teachings were either Roman Mystery religion or Jewish in origin. The Valley of Hinnom (see above) was a place where sinners were actually burnt, the hell that the pagan religions believed in was a symbolic place (where those who died went) used to persuade people to behave better, and the Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of Hell.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Bob said

    Facinatingly - the RCC itself admits to pagan influence mixing in with Christian practices and beliefs.

    The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic book "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

    Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century

     
    #47 BobRyan, Mar 7, 2007
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  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Facinatingly - the RCC itself admits to pagan influence mixing in with Christian practices and beliefs.

    The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic book "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..



     
    #48 BobRyan, Mar 7, 2007
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  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I claim that paganism is the author of the concepts of hell later infused into Christianity by Catholics who THEMSELVES admit to the influence of paganism on their beliefs and practices... then you complain that I SHOW that this view IS correct - that the pagan sources themselves admit to their own invention of the myth??

    What part of this is "reason" on your part?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    More of Christian sources confessing their links and similarities to paganism --

    Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

    Pagan prayer methods.



     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Having said that - let's go to the Bible teaching on hell -

    First a set of 3 points to "make this simple" for all.

    Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

    Fiery Hell == Eternal Fire == Fire and Brimstone == Second Death (lake of fire)

    1.
    Eternal fire = Hell (fiery Hell). (Matt 18:8-9)
    The final Judgment is one of “Eternal Fire” Jude 7 and Sodom shows that..

    2.
    The eternal fire sent to Sodom was in the form of “Fire and Brimstone: (Luke 17:2-30) and it will be JUST THE SAME in the judgment of Christ on the wicked.

    3. The second Death is that Fire and Brimstone judgment sent upon the wicked after the millennium (Rev 21:8):
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Fiery Hell – is in fact “eternal fire”



    Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”



    Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”[/b]. So [b]eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone[/b] and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

    So they are a perfect example of the punishment of eternal fire DESTROYING something.

    Let’s not turn a blind eye to it.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Luke 17:29-30
    29 but on the day that Lot went out from [b]Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.[/b]
    30 "It will be [b]just the same[/b] on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.



    The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”


    Rev 21:
    8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.[/quote]



    Just as we saw this SAME thing destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (eternal fire DESTROYED those cities) so it will destroy the wicked in the Lake of Fire "Both Body AND SOUL" according to Matt 10:28
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Death is ended.
    "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


    [b]The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.[/b]


    The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.

    The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

    Matt 10
    28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather [b[/B]
    ]fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]


    In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
    Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth
    2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction

    Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”


    The wicked will “be no more”

    How great the contrast between Satan’s “beginning” and his “end” –


    The wicked are destroyed “Both Body AND soul” Matt 10:28 and “Destroy” means “Reduced to Ashes” (2Peter 2:6 Jude 7)
     
    #55 BobRyan, Mar 7, 2007
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  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .



    In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.



    Question for the exegetical review –

    #1. What would the primary intended readers of Matt 10 have accepted as “in this life” the wicked ARE able to “Destroy the body” to “Kill the body”. Would they not think of it as “really kill the body” or would they see themselves in “ever-living-physical bodies” that the wicked NOT able to kill much less destroy??

    Answer: They would obviously accept that their earthly bodies ARE killed, tormented and even destroyed in this life!! Destroyed as in “killed and turned into ashes”

    #2. Would the first order primary audience have concluded that to DESTROY the body goes beyond just KILLING it and leaving it in tact as a corpse? Would they conclude that DESTORY means to not only kill – but ALSO to destroy the remains of the body!?? Indeed they would!

    Jude
    7 just as [b]Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities[/b] around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
    [

    They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God sent as ‘judgment” as the “punishment” of eternal fire..

    Luke 17:29-30
    29 but on the day that Lot went out from [b]Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

    30 "It will be [b]just the same[/b] on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.




    2 Peter 2:6
    and if He condemned [b]the cities[/b] of Sodom and Gomorrah to [b]destruction by reducing them to ashes[/b], having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;


    Mal 4:1,3 The wicked will be set ablaze – turned to ashes, nothing left
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Then you finally figured out that you are not reading Hebrew poetry in Matt 10??

    Both Luke and Matt make it clear that God not only CAN but DOES put people in fiery hell.

    Your point fails before it gets started sir.

    Again your argument dies in infancy. It is ALREADY glaringly obvious to the reader that in THIS life "KILL the body" does NOT mean "cause it to live forever".

    So you imagining that to "not only KILL the body but also DESTROY it" means "cause it to live for ever" - is clearly failed logic.

    Once we add the fact that Christ ALSO adds the SOUL to that situation - you are at a complete - dead stop.

    This is so glaringly obvious that no amount of dancing on your part is getting around this halt in your argument sir. Microsoft is simply not helping you here.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is why I really like what the NASB, NKJV, NIV, KJV, YLT, ... etc all do in Matt 10:28.


    And it is clear that the "KILL" of the body but not the soul - being extended to this kill AND DESTROY of BOTH body and soul in fiery hell - is a clear and obvious progression from the lesser to the greater.

    It is also clear why you should fear the one not the other.

    It is also clear that "kill the body" in this life does not mean" keep it alive forever".

    In this simple obvious points - your entire case dies.

    Surely that is just as obvious to you sir. Why not just accept scripture for what it is saying here?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This is absolutely bizzarre! You trust the word of Satanists (not simple pagans, as you claim)! I can't believe it! You actually trust what Anton LeVey, the "father" of modern Satanism, says, and will give his views real respect over against the view of a missionary of the Lord Jesus Christ with extensive Bible training (namely little old me).

    Of course Satanists will make those kinds of claim! They have an anti-Christian, anti-truth agenda! Their whole goal is to tear down any form of Bible truth or even false forms of Christianity. They don't want to believe what you believe about the Lord, and they don't want to believe what I believe about the Lord, and yet you think they are a valid source, but tear down everything I have said. Whew!!

    I have enjoyed the give and take, except for your insistence on being absolutely right, (oh, no, I couldn't possibly know anything about Hebrew poetry, could I :laugh: ), and your constant carping over the same point.

    But I'll tell you what, this takes the cake. You may be a nice person in real life, but with your defense of the Satanist "Bible" as a valid source I have lost all confidence in your discernment. This "debate" has changed character and become an argument. I hate argument as much as I love debate.
     
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The Jesus Mysteries is an anti-Christian book that claims that Jesus Christ was a pagan god and there are many errors in the Bible.

    The religioustolerance.org website defends such false religions as Buddhism, Wicca/witchcraft, Taoism, the ever morally-impure Hinduism, etc. The "Statement of Belief" on the website shows that they do not believe in absolutes: "We believe that the systems of truth in the field of morals, ethics, and religious belief that we have studied are not absolute: they vary by culture, by religion, and over time."

    Bob, if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas, and you are just covered with fleas. You sign "In Christ" at the end of your posts. Do you really mean it? Then why are you quoting as authorities these enemies of the true Jesus Christ of the Bible?
     
    #60 John of Japan, Mar 8, 2007
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