I Initially Wrote this as a Response on a Thread

This is one of the most accurate postings I have read in quite a while.

I have friends who are KJVO, and you are right. Every discussion ends up with them mentioning how superior the KJV is to all other translations.

Here on the BB, the Calvinist seem to have a one track theology. How sad.

 

Tom Butler...

That is EXACTLY the way I was many years ago when I 1st came to *see* the fullness of the Grace of God, and justification through faith alone. Oh man...it was just so glorious.

Was? It still is! :godisgood:

 

I have noticed this on both sides of the C/A debates. You can't just pin this on the "C's" only. I know that the scriptures says "Iron sharpeneth iron", but some on here want to take their "iron" and grind the other "iron" off at the nub.

I look at this like this:If I do not agree with someone, I do so in love. It would be pretty dull in here if all we got was "I agree with this", "I agree with that", "I see it the same way", etc. But I like a civil debate. There are many DoGer's on here that I truly respect. Luke2427, kyredneck, Jim1999, DrBob, et al, come to mind. I do not agree with their theology(nor do they mine), but I respect them, and more importantly, love them as dear Brothers in Christ. When any of us go so far that the name calling starts, we need to take a break from here for a few days.

Remember this: While we are in here debating, there are thousands over seas fighting so that we can do this. Let us lift our troops up to the Throne of Grace and that He will watch over those who are fighting, while we are typing(this thought had just popped into my head, so I thought I'd share it with y'all). They are dodging bullets so that we can debate.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

For those of you who realize that it is not only the Calvinists (really don't like generic labels) who get insulting. There are many threads where the posters states "the false theology of the Calvinists" while explaining why there can be no predestined Christians.

But why stop there? I've asked before who people referred to when they slam Fundamentalists. The word indicates to me that a Fundamentalist believes in the fundamentals, yet people still tie that label with perjoratives.

Perhaps, it is not the theology.

Perhaps, it is the person who is posting. Maybe it is an issue with the conceit of the person regardless of beliefs.

Don't blame the Calvinists as if all other parties are without the same sin.

 

There is a difference in what is popularly styled "Calvinism" and what I would call the doctrines of grace. Calvinism has a few major flaws which can lead to an elitist attitude whereas the doctrines of grace typically lead to a humble attitude.

 

Tom writes:
"As I matured, I learned that this attitude didn't win converts to Calvinism. I rarely bring up the subject, but I'm still willing to discuss it, if I'm asked about it."

I hope you don't consider winning "converts to Calvinism" as important as winning converts to Christ. You apparently consider it important to win converts to Calvinism, Why?

Unfortunately, it seems that many Christians with various beliefs try to convince other Christians to accept their doctrine. As long as we are Christians, why bother to convince another Christian of your belief?

One problem with debating is that an effective technique is to misrepresent the other person's belief and then criticize him for it. This is done many trimes on BB. People don't like their belief misrepresented which is one of the reasons for interest in this thread.

One reason I stopped debating long ago on BB is that I got tired of being misrepresented concerning my beliefs. My participation on here involves discussion and exchange of information.

 

"Don't blame the Calvinists as if all other parties are without the same sin."

I think some Christians of all beliefs are sometimes guilty of this. For instance, some who believe in the eternal secuirty doctrine have accused me of calling God a liar.

 

I obviously was not clear. When I first came to the Doctrines of Grace, i raised the subject with just about everybody. In fact, on my first date (19 years ago) with the woman who now is my wife, I sketched out the Five Points on a napkin at Dairy Queen.

I don't do stuff like that any more. As you correctly said, it is more important to point people to Christ than to Calvinism. But that does not lessen my desire that everybody will come to that view--a view which I believe is Biblical. Even so,I have softened my approach.

If, however, someone asks me about it, then I will be happy to engage in a discussion--not an argument or debate.

If a Methodist wants to talk with me about the differences between Methodists and Baptists, I'm ready as well. But either way, I'm not out there looking Methodists (or Arminians) to debate. I hope I will get a clear direction from the Holy Spirit as how approach it.

 

This alone should alarm anyone who attends a church like this. If this doctrine is so obvious, then why must people constantly be shown a few limited verses that seem to support it and exclude the rest of scripture?

Go to a charismatic church and you will see the same thing. Every week they preach on Pentacost or the spiritual gifts shown in Corinthians. Of course, they skip on those scriptures that say only two or three can speak in order in tongues and only if an interpreter is present, and that woman are not allowed to be the pastor.

See these false teachers on TV that just want your money. All they preach on are a few select verses that seem to teach God wants you to be rich. You'll never hear them them quote verses like Matthew 19:23 or 1 Timothy 6:9.

Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1 Tim 6:But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

No, week after week they quote the same few verses over and over saying God wants you to be rich if you will just step out in faith (which means sending them money).

These folks must be afraid you'll read the scriptures for yourself.

 

Yes, they are afraid of that. By and large it is the Calvinists that are telling us that in order to be Bible smart you have to have multiple degrees. They are telling us that we don't believe in Calvinism because we aren't learned enough. According to them, only ignorant, unlearned, no degree having, illiterates would think Calvinism isn't true.

 

Exactly. I do not say this to be hurtful, but Calvinists are known for arrogance and pride. Go back in this thread alone and see how often Calvinists are called arrogant. The scriptures say knowledge "puffeth up" and boy, is that evident with Calvinists.

But really, they have very limited knowledge of the scriptures. They focus on just a few verses of scripture that pulled out of context seem to support their doctrine, but ignore MUCH scripture that clearly contradicts and refutes it.

 

Are you trying to say in "everything" we judge, or only in some "elected things" we judge?

:smilewinkgrin:

 

I disagree. I don't come across as arrogant because I am not arrogant. In fact, I am quite humble.

And quite proud of it, thank you.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

Yep, that's us Calvinists. Skeered of the scriptures. Ignernt, arrogant, over-edumacated.. You've caught us red-handed.

And those poor, illiterate, uneducated non-Cals: Boy do you have them nailed,too.

 

Oh, by the way...I forgot to add this to my post earlier.

I am a hard core, dyed in the wool "Cal/Arminion-ist"

Did I choose Christ? You better believe it.
Did Christ choose me? You better believe it.

I'm a Cal/Arminion-ist.

And I love the brothers and sisters on both sides equally.

Just wish everyone could get along, or at least "play nice".

Lifes to short. Love each other.

 

If someone were to ask me to show them a post that displays arrogance, I could use this one.

 

Bolded is a blanket statement that simply is not true. I'm sure that there are Calvinists with a limited knowledge of scripture. However, I know at least a few personally (and a few that I read) that humble me with their depth and breadth of Bible knowledge.

 

I'm not a Calvinist---and often remind people on the BB that when one does study the works of Calvin--they are studying something that falls somewhat short of infallablity and inerrancy

However---I do have Calvinist preacher buddies and know many regular church believers who are Calvinist----some of the most humble people you ever want to associate with

One Calvinist preacher friend was pastoring a non calvin church in my association---I stopped by to visit him and his family---in the middle of a winter cold snap------walked inside the parsonage---and the temp inside was cold as ice-----the church was making him pay his own Propane fuel--and he told me they couldn't afford another tank load anytime soon-----I noticed he had a wood burning heater in the living room and he said the deacons had promised to keep him supplied with wood to burn but they fell short of the promise

I already had two cords of wood cut for myself---so I went home----loaded up a cord and brought it to them

The day came that this Calvin buddy of mine resigned his church to move back to "Jaw-juh"----if it were not for my wife and I---there would have been no one there to help him load and to see his family off---so much for this non calvin church

Sometimes those non calvin churches can reek of pride just like any other calvin church

 

I suspect that if you put all of us in a room together to discuss our soteriology, our debates would be much more civil and our comments tempered. I seriously doubt if I could look your brothers and sisters in the eye and use harsh language. I think most of us would "play nice," or at least "play nicer."

With an exception here and there. Sorta like the billboard I saw each time I drove into Clinton, Kentucky, a little community in far Western Kentucky. This was 50 years ago; it's not there now.

It said:
"Welcome to Clinton, Kentucky, Home of 1,500 happy people and one old grouch"