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I Initially Wrote this as a Response on a Thread

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by preacher4truth, Dec 16, 2010.

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  1. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    Independent of what has been descussed on this thread, it should be obvious to Calvinist why some other Christians resent them. Calvinist describe their belief in terms that imply a misrepresentation of what Non-Calvinist believe.

    The Doctrines of Grace - This implies that Non-Calvinist don't believe in God's grace.

    Many Calvinists state that Non-Calvinists don't believe God is as severeign as Calvinists. In fact, all Christians believe God is completely sovereign.

    Since Calvinists use terms that imply a misrepresentation of what other Christians believe, they should expect some resentment. If you don't want to be resented, then stop using those type terms.

    If Calvinists don't want to be resented, they should use terms like "unconditional election" and "irresistable grace" to describe their beliefs. Personally, I think some Calvinists use "DoG" and "more sovereignity" to misrepresent other Christian's beliefs and to cause resentment among other Christians.
     
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No sir that is not true. But all Christians do like to SAY they believe in complete Sovereignty.

    The fact of the matter is the non-cal believes there are millions and millions of things that happen everyday that God did not at all want and wishes that they wouldn't happen and the only reason they do is because he has forfeited his sovereignty to the will of men. If God had been completely controlling those events there would have been a totally different outcome- but the fact of the matter is that in the Arminian's world- God does not completely control all things- in fact millions of things happen apart from his will and control every day.

    The Calvinist believes EVERY SINGLE THING that ever happens is part of the plan of God. He decreed it for his own glory. He rules it all- every part. That is complete sovereignty. That is what the Bible teaches but it is diametrically opposed to the way men LIKE to think of God- this is why we have Arminians.
     
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Luke, if you want to believe God has decreed that little children be molested and murdered or that men beat their wives or divorce them for their secretary, you go right ahead. But I and a lot of other people do not believe that it is God's will that people commit evil acts, but only that He permits it until the day of the Lord. In fact God has commanded us NOT to do these things, therefore it is foolish to think that He decreed that we do them.
     
    #43 Amy.G, Dec 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2010
  4. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    In fact, all Christians believe God is completely sovereign.


    Thank you so much for verifying and demonstrating my point. As long as Calvinist continue to misrepresent the beliefs of Non-Calvinists, they should expect some resentment.
     
  5. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Best post on this thread...

    :thumbs:
     
  6. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    I'll second that. This is the best statement so far!.. and in fact, if Amy wants to come to our church, I'll let her preach it!..
     
  7. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    I'm kind of interested to see how Luke responds to these last few posts.

    Luke...

    You're up to bat.
     
  8. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Amy from the perspective your speaking of I totally agree with you. But from a more complex perspective I think you might consider revising your statements. I think it is part of God's sovereignty to mysteriously (by secondary means) to allow these wicked events to happen although as you said He despises them to the core of His good nature. He does not primarily cause these events but has complete power to stop them or make them less evil if you will. What about natural disasters? Does God control nature? what about the hurricane that killed 500 people including families, babies, and small children? tough question I must say.

    Look at Judas' life

    John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him."

    John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
    John 6:71 "Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."

    John 13:2 "During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him"

    John 13:11 "For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

    John 13:18 “I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’

    John 13:26 "Jesus then answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot."

    John 13:27 "After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

    John 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not 1one1 of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

    Notice the last statement in relation to John 6:35-40

    You can also look at Pontius Pilate in his thoughts concerning his authority (or his free power) Jesus' response:

    John 19:10-11 "So Pilate said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin"

    Acts 2:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever You hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    It is not complicated at all. God allows sin, but does not decree it. Here is what Jesus had to say about leading others to sin.

    Matthew 18:6-7 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!


    Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    Woe to that man by whom the offence cometh. He who draws others into sin is awfully guilty. No man can be more guilty, life wickedness can be more deeply seated in the heart, than that which attempts to mar the peace, defile the purity, and destroy the souls of others. And yet, in all ages, there have been multitudes, who, by persecution, threats, arts, allurements, and persuasion, have endeavoured to seduce Christians from the faith, and to lead them into sin.

    Sin is an abomination to God. God cannot sin. Therefore God does not decree someone to sin. If He did, He would be a worse sinner.


    As finite human beings we cannot begin to understand the complex workings of the mind of an infinite God. We cannot understand all thy why's and why nots. But God has written His word exactly the way He wanted it with just the understanding He desired to gives us at this time.

    Too much time is spent trying to dissect and pick apart the mind of God which we cannot understand anyway only to satisfy the need to know everything.
     
  10. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Yes it is. :), understanding God's sovereign will is incredibly complex. I can't even fathom how He controls evil according to His purposes. If you deny that He has control over evil, then there is a larger issue to wrestle with. Look at Joseph's life, Joseph's brothers meant their actions as evil, but God meant them for good. How did God do that?

    I'm just curious if you read any of the Scripture I quoted?

    Im not sure how this fits in our discussion. This passage does not speak about God's decrees. It simply speaks on the seriousness, destructiveness, and judgment of sin.



    I agree with the fact that God doesn't cause sin, sin, or make people sin. People sin willingly. Yet at the same time God mysteriously uses it, controls sin in accordance with His plans, and man is still held accountable. I refer you back to Judas, my example. God predestined it, He spoke of it in Scripture, Jesus prophesied and allowed it to happen, Judas did it, and was severely judged for it. In Judas' case it seems God allowed Satan to enter Him to lead Him astray, but notice how Jesus could have prevented it from happening, yet did not. Why? Answer: So the Scripture would be fulfilled. What does that mean? God predestined for Judas' to betray Jesus to bring about a terrible but beautiful thing- Jesus atonement.


    Amy I agree with most of what you said here. We cant know everything, we spend to much time thinking of these things, and we are finite. This doesn't mean we completely ignore these things, declare them to be pointless, or try to be simple in our thinking. Jesus was quite complex and the Scripture speaks of complex issues to think about. I think there must be a balance in our minds and lives, although it is quite hard. I also believe deep meditation about God is very good as are the simple things about God.
     
    #50 zrs6v4, Dec 20, 2010
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    All Christians need to know God is in complete control of whatsoever comes to pass. To deny this is sinful in that you would say that there are things outside of God's control which is a wicked false teaching.
    God does not force man to do sin and wickedness that you describe.They willfully sin,because they[the sinful persons]desire to sin. Yet even this sin is not outside of God's decree....he allows the sin but has decreed to punish these sins 100%. The cross is a prime example of this;
    from the 1689 confession of faith
     
  12. SRBooe

    SRBooe New Member

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    By the way, not ALL people who accept the Doctrine of Grace believe that God CAUSES all events to unfold. Some of us know that God gave man free will in many things, so we won't accuse anyone in not believing that God is in charge.

    Blanket statements made with labels can be wrong, wrong, wrong.
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    When did I ever say God is not in control? Allowing men to sin does not mean God has lost control.



    I am not the one who said God forces people to sin. That was Luke. He said God decrees everything. My post was in response to that statement.
     
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    All people sin willfully. Believers and unbelievers. There is no distinction, none of us sin accidentally.

    Do you commit sin?

    Do you sin accidentally, or do you, when/if you sin, do so intently?

    When you confess your sins, do you confess them as a willful intended sin, or as you accidentally had sinned?
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Luke never said God FORCES people to sin. Why can't you represent someone honestly?

    I said God decreed that sin should exist.

    The idea of FORCE was never mentioned.

    To argue against this is to declare that sin was one big cosmic accident and it reduces Calvary to little more than a divine clean-up endeavor.


    God must forfeit his Sovereignty when things start happening that he does not ultimately want to happen. That is what you free willers teach.

    God does not WANT anyone to sin and God does not WANT anyone to go to hell. But trillions of sins are committed each day and thousands go to hell each day. If it were up to God it would never be so. But free willers teach that it is not up to God.

    The very definition of sovereignty is that it is up to the one who is sovereign.

    The free willer god is not sovereign because trillions of things happen each day that were it up to God would never happen.

    The free willer god forfeits his sovereignty to the free will of men.
     
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    So Luke, which is it?
     
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    EVERYTHING is ultimately up to God.

    I thought that was clear.
     
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    You said:

    Then you said:
    And:


    So again I ask, which is it? You said "if" it were up to God people wouldn't do bad things (implying everything is not up to God). Then you said "everything" is up to God.
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No Amy. I am saying that is what YOU guys say.

    That is NOT what WE say. We do NOT say that there are things that are not up to God.

    EVERYTHING is up to God in the universe- this is what Calvinists recognize.

    God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You know you just defined sovereign in your post? ;)
     
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