"I never knew you." So how do I get Him to know me?

With all respect, may in interject?

What is the difference in those who are "not of his sheep" and those who "trust their own works for salvation?" In other words, you both seem to be talking about the same people. Those not truly saved very well may cling to their good works. And those who are saved will most certainly cling to Christ.

I'm just not seeing the point of your disagreement, I guess.

 

Well, I agree with what you said here. Simply saying Jesus is your Lord does not mean it is so. This is why I have questioned several Calvinists in the past and asked how they know they are elect.

What I see as different from the Arm/non-Cal view and the Ref/Cal view is this: Calvinists argue they believe because they are elect. I believe that is putting the cart before the horse. Non-Cals/Arms say they know they are elect because they have believed, which I believe is scriptural.

Does this subtle difference make a difference? I believe it does. Calvinists SEEM to say they are saved because they were foremost chosen, where Non-Cals say they are saved because they believed. Now, you will get offended, but the Calvinist position SEEMS to imply that there was something in a man that caused God to choose them (although I know all Calvinists deny this), where non-Cals believe they are saved because they trusted Jesus to save them when they were completely unworthy of salvation.

Calvinists constantly say "I am elect" which certainly seems to imply they are something very special. It points to themselves.

Non-Cals say "I am saved" which points to Jesus as having saved them.

Very subtle difference, but very telling.

You can never know you are saved by knowing you are elect, unless God were to come down and tell you personally.

But a person can absolutely know if they have come to Jesus in their heart and trusted him to save them. Read the scriptures, people were never in doubt as to whether they had believed or not. Faith is not some mysterious, magical thing, it is a commitment, a decision.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

No one in the scriptures was confused as to whether they had believed in Jesus or not, they knew they believed.

The problem is that some have distorted what faith is. They have made it into a mysterious, magical thing, where in reality it is an act of submission, placing one's salvation in Jesus's hands, just as when you loan someone your car you are trusting them to take care of it. It is no longer in your hands.

Another example might be surgery. You trust the doctor. You allow him to put you asleep and open up your body. You are completely helpless and dependent upon him. This is what it means to believe or trust, it is not some mysterious thing you cannot be sure you have done.

I know when I was a boy that I came to Jesus in my heart and asked him to save me. I put the matter in his hands and I am depending upon him to save me as he promised all who come to him. If he doesn't save me as he promised, I am a goner for sure. But I know what I did, it was not some mysterious, magical thing.

Even Calvinists become Arminian when you ask them how they know they are elect, they all say they know because they have believed. This is correct, too bad they can't see this contradicts what they claim they believe, they claim they believe because they are elect.

This was not meant to offend, just telling it like it is.

 

I see.

Let me explain.

I argued that not all those who say they have trusted Jesus are truly each and every one born again.

I applied this passage to these also by way of saying certainly some of these (in Matthew 7) professed that they trusted Jesus as Savior, but were not really born again.

It could be true, yes, that they were dependent upon works also.

But maybe not. Maybe they just did not believe. But yet said they believed.

Simply, I've stated that not all those who claim to know Him do. Then it was argued by others that those that "truly know him truly know" Him as a rebuttal.

That's circular reasoning. I've never argued against those who "truly" know Him. Only that not all who say they do know Him actually do.

I've applied his passage to them also somewhere along the lines, that they too will face the same fate, that they never knew Him.

 

I have seen you write several times there are different kinds of faith. I would disagree with this. There is real faith and false faith, but false faith is not faith at all, as counterfeit money is not really money. I hope you understand what I mean.

Faith can be misdirected. It is the object of our faith that is important. You can have real faith in your works and you will be lost. Or, you can have real faith in Jesus and depend upon only him and be saved.

The devils really believe, they really do. But salvation is not offered to them. Jesus did not die for the devils.

Biblical faith is ALWAYS based on a promise. If there is no promise, then there is no object of faith.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

You can't just work up faith. Faith must be founded on a promise of God. God never promised to save the devils. God DID promise to save all men who come to his Son Jesus. A person can have REAL faith in a REAL promise. You cannot simply create a promise in your mind and believe it, that is delusion.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

You can have REAL faith in Jesus, because Jesus PROMISED to save all who come to him.

Jn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

You can have real faith that Jesus will save you if you come to him, because he has promised to save all who come to him and cast no one out under any circumstance. Wonderful promise!

False faith is no faith at all, it is a counterfeit.

 

To add to this post, we must keep in mind the context here. Paul is speaking to believers only, not to people in general or even mere professors of faith. In I Corinthians 1, Paul opens and addresses his readers in this manner:

1 Corinthians 1:1-4 (KJV)
1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Someone who is merely pretending to be saved or is deceived would not qualify. An unsaved person, regardless of who he is, could never be called sanctified in Christ Jesus or a recipient of His grace. Clearly, Paul is speaking directly to believers and no one else.

Even if we were to concede for the sake of argument that there will be only one general judgment, the people whom Paul describes as standing on the Judgment Seat platform in this particular instance are--without a doubt--saved. Paul even declares that they will be saved, but through fire. This statement would never be true for a pretender or the deceived.

 

Exactly. Good points.

 

Right, and I think everyone affirms that point. I think we all agree that there are some who "honor God with their lips, while their hearts are far from Him."

But they listed their works as reasons as to why they should be saved, so would you be speculating to say some of the ones Christ is referring to weren't depending on works?

I think they were meaning to communicate that those who truly know him won't depend on works, which I know you agree with.

Sorry to interrupt. I just thought you all seemed to be arguing about things you really agree upon.

 

That was my entire point, and that was all.

I know I am saved, therefore I am elect.

I have to disagree with you about faith. There are different types. Including faith that has no works. No need to go any further with it, it's not necessary.

I only apply Matthew 7 to those who also said they were saved, and are not, they get the same solemn sentence. It's sad really.

 

Not everyone affirms that point, or we would not have so many responses here. :love2:

No. I'm simply saying and acknowledging that some were trusting in their works, as this passage illustrates, but, that there will be even others, who in fact just did not believe, for whatever reason, and hypocrites, and every other fomr of lost man. As far as their eternal indictment, on both sides, and all sides, and to every type, all "never knew Him" and all "were lawless workers of iniquities".

 

Wrong book. Jesus is teaching His apostles a full range of truths concerning this present world & the one to come.

Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

 

But Matthew 7 argues against your view, these persons had works, they prophesied in Jesus name, they were even able to cast out devils! They did many wonderful works. The trouble was, they never came to Jesus in submission, confessing themselves as sinners unable to save themselves, and trusting him alone to save them.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The works the Pharisee worked were righteous works. He was obeying the law. Of course, no one always obeys the law including this Pharisee. He was trusting in himself, in his own works.

The publican on the other hand made no claim of righteousness. He freely confessed he was a terrible sinner and threw himself on the mercy of God. This is trust, it is a depending on Jesus.

And notice that Jesus said only the publican went down to his house justified, his sins forgiven.

This is a wonderful parable, because it tells any man how to be saved. If we confess we are a sinner and come to Jesus in dependence, he will have mercy and save us.

This Pharisee believed in God, but he did not trust God for salvation, he trusted in his own righteousness. It is the object of our faith that matters. His faith was real, but it was misplaced.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate cannot seek God, but Paul clearly refutes that here. He says his brethren the Jews have a "zeal of God". They believed in God, they wanted to be saved, but they trusted in their own works and did not submit to God trusting in Jesus.

In another thread someone asked if God can only save those who permit God to save them. This is not what the scriptures say. The scriptures say man has to SUBMIT to the righteousness of God. God will gladly save those who submit to him and trust in his Son Jesus. God will in no way save those who do not submit to him.

 

Well, I don't know about everybody because I admittingly didn't read every post, but the person you were debating seemed to affirm this point when he wrote:

"Of course there are those who claim Christ but do not have an understanding of the Gospel, but that is not the point of the verse.... they claimed their own works."

 

The question was asked, "How do I get Him to know me?" Acknowledge Him as soon as you can, for He has chosen you. Don't refuse Him, as did Israel. He will know you when you believe Him. Who believed the Godhead before Jesus was ever known? His Word tells us it was only Noah. Why are we here today? Because of Noah, or the purpose of God that He knew would come about. Because Noah alone believed God, Noah's kin were saved. Eight souls only. I do wonder if history will repeat itself. Only eight to be caught up to Him to finish out the fullness of His Body? I belive I am in The Body of Christ.

 

The scriptures answer this question.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Seems pretty straightforward, if we know him we keep his commandments.

 

Delineate what His commandments that we are to keep.

 

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Please tell me if John shook hands with others from the loins of Israel, some that came from Gentile territory? John, as well as James, Peter and the others of the apostolic church lid give their word that they would not preach the Gospel of the Circumcision to those of the Uncircumcised. His Word tells me there is an Apostle appointed by Jesus Christ to the Gentile, those that wish to be in the Body of Christ today, as they live.

 

I'm not even going to read other posters responses, I'm just going to tell you that for many years THIS was exactly my fear. I'd always gone to church, walked the aisle and was baptized at 9 but always had doubts. It used to irritate me to no end that preachers could stand up and say, "I know that I know" and similar things and I'd think, "but HOW do you know." Then a few years ago a scripture verse was given to me by the Lord himself, John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: , and then He said...do you hear my voice. Joy flooded over me because for the first time I knew that I knew. That's how you can know that He knows you and if He knows you He will NEVER EVER say, "I knew you not."

 

I have no idea what you are saying here.