I Peter 1:5

If your faith will end in sight, and God still has faith, then you are greater than God! Amazing!!

 

Your faith did not originate from God, and neither did mine. The gift of faith as spoken of in the Bible was a spiritual and temporary gift of the first century which is no longer in existence today, and really has nothing to do with this conversation. You have used that verse out of context. Even if it did apply today, a spiritual gift would never be given to an unbeliever that he may be saved. The concept is ridiculous.
Faith does not originate with God.

Every man exercises faith. I already have given you many examples which you ignore. What is faith. It is belief, trust, confidence. It is those simple things that a child has--faith or confidence that their parents will feed, clothe and protect them--not throw them out in the middle of the street, and abandon them there to starve and die. They have faith that their parents will provide for them. Their confidence is in their parents, not in God. God didn't give them that faith. It is innate. They are not Christians at that point. They don't have the capacity to understand the gospel; but they do have the capacity to understand that it is their parents that will care for them; therefore it is their parents that they trust; that they put their "faith" in. That is an example of faith.

When I purchase a ticket, for example, from Toronto to New York, I don't go to the air port, and by blind faith point to the various planes and go: eenie meeni mynie mo, and wherever my finger lands try and board that plane in faith that it will take me to the right destination. That is blind faith, and not based on fact. My faith is based on intellectual fact. It is based on the facts of the Word of God. It does not come from God, but rather God's revelation to me.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God.
That is the origin of Biblical faith. Biblical faith must come from the Bible, by hearing the Word of God. It has no other source but the Word of God. It comes from one preaching the gospel. It comes from hearing the Word of God. God does not give you faith. You attain faith by hearing the word of God. And when you believe that the Word of God is true, that what it says is true, you put your faith, your confidence in its promises and believe that Christ died for you, and become saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It is faith that saves. The faith is not from God, but it comes from hearing the Word of God. It comes from you because you become confident in the message that you hear that you are ready to believe it.

That is true in any realm, in any field: whether it be in the word of another person, the word of a scientist, a bus driver, a friend, your wife or child, etc. How much confidence do you put in the words of the people around you? How much faith do you have in others?
How much faith do you have in the Word of God, and in the author of that Word? That is the question. That faith does not come directly from God Himself. It must come from you. God gave you a will to choose. It is up to you to choose to believe or not. God is not forcing you to believe (have faith). That is what you are inferring. God will not do that. And that is why faith does not originate with God. You must make the decision yourself. Will you accept him or reject him? You decide! By faith! Not God's faith (no such thing). You must decide yourself.

 

I do not think that is a correct rendering of Gal. 2:20, in today's English. Apparently many Bible Translators agree that the KJV is incorrectly rendered in the 20th and 21st Century English, although it may have been perfectly rendered in the early 17th Century. Language uses change, sometimes. (First and last editions copyright cited, where more than one exist.)

It is by faith in the Son of God.

Amen, Bro. Salamander. You said it. So we agree on this????

Ed

 

Not believe/faith in Christ that saves? I would like to say what I believe that is, but since the word is frowned on by the "powers that be" on the BB, I will instead quote a Bible verse that gives my sentiments on this teaching.

I am not willing to label anyone an "h******", but suggest that this idea is definitely Biblically in error, for it is making an attempted distinction that Scripture does not make.

Mt. 18:6; Mk 9:42; Jo. 1:12; 6:29; 7:5; 9:35, 36; 12:37; 14:1; 16:9; 17:1; Ro. 4:24; 10:14; Ph'lp 1:29 & I Pet. 1:21 also all speak of believing in God, In Jesus, or in His name, as well. I suggest t here is something to this, given the number of verses that speak of this very thing.

While I do not disagree in any way that salvation is "of" God, it is not a Biblical error to also say that salvation is "in" God .

I wopuld respectfully disagree with your insisted use of the phrase "granted faith", for this implies, as DHK has noted, an idea that 'faith is given'. The only ocurence of faith being implied as a 'gift', is a 'spiritual gift', as I have previously noted, in Rom. 12:3.

And your idea that "of" and "in" are not synonomous is entirely correct in the English language. That does not hold true for the Greek Language, which is the language of the NT. (As always, I cannot speak to the OT Hebrew and/or Chaldee/Aramaic, for I know none. And I admit, I did not search for any OT usage of any phrase or words for this post.) But there is no Greek word for "of", to my knowledge, unlike "in" which is rendered and derived (usually) from either 'eis' (into) or 'en' (in). "Of" in the NT is derived from the genitive and/or ablative case usage. But there is no word for it, in koine Greek, to my knowledge.

As to what we agree on, and/or disagree on, I still think that our major area of disagreement(s) would be "dervied theology" and "Lordship salvation". It seems that that is where my disagreements with about anyone wind up. I have been accused of not believing in repentance. That is absolutely false. I do believe that the repentance that is part andf parcel of salvation is a "change of mind", and is the 'flip-side', so to speak, of "believe/faith in Jesus Christ". One can, I guess, "repent of sin", whatever that means, but that alone does not save anyone. But one who 'repents toward God', does not do so, aside from having "faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ", and vice versa.

That, and that alone is the repentance 'required' for salvation. Gotta' run and feed the cattle before dark.

Ed

 

I was not attempting to "artificially label" you (or anyone else, for that matter) an heretic, but I do not have (and never have had) any such qualms about calling false teachng "heresy". That is the very definition of heresy. That is what I was attempting to do. Sorry, If you took that the wrong way. One can be caught up in false (or a lack of clear) teaching without intent, I would say. It happened to Apollos. He was never called an heretic, to my knowledge.

There is no distinction between any of the forms of "believe", "believes", "believeth", and "believest" except the verb as it relates to the .number' and 'person' of the noun or pronoun, and the last two are archaic forms, and "believest" it associated with the singular second person and also archaic use of "Thou". 'You believe' is correct English, today, and 'believes' is relegated to the third person singular. So this attempted distinction, you are inquiring about is entirely artificial. For there is no distinction, at all. And I cannot make a distinction where there is none.

"Believe in vs believe on" amounts to the same thing. I already posted this with comparisons in post # 58 in this thread, so will not retype it. I am sure one, if one really desires, can scroll back to that post to see this. Again, there is no difference, except one that you are trying to invent. I still cannot make a distinction where there is none. And I would add - no I'm not going to say this yet, but still may.

And you are confusing what was said (or are you trying to convince yourself, out of curiosity?) about "faith". That too has been posted and answered. Let's see - post # 27 and # 49 from me. Plus posts that speak to this by Helen, DHK, and one other which may have been webdog, but I am not looking this up again.

I posted twice already regarding Galatians 2:20 and your contention of "it is the faith "OF" Jesus Christ with which we live our new lives IN Him". I contend that the meaning is faith in Christ, since you asked. I have cited ten Bible versions that render it this way [as faith in Christ (post # 85) and could have cited several more] and said, when you responded with

the afore mentioned statement about 'something that I believed to be 'heretical''. I quoted 15 verses that said "believe in Jesus" or "believe in Him", and cited another 15 that spoke of the same thing, in post # 87.

You've not shown this to be said by Scripture; you have merely assumed it to be true. The one time that this is even remotely spoken to in Scripture has been shown to be in the category of "spiritual gift", which are given at salvation, equal to that of teacher, apostle, or 'tongues', to name three.

I'd suggest these above two statements fit together very well. And as for who said "faith toward ... Jesus Christ", and I'll add "faith toward God" to that, as well, that would be Paul, Luke, Apollos, and the Holy Spirit.

And I will now say it. The unspoken position of your threads here has been that the KJV is superior to any other (read modern) English version. And you have not been hesitant to support some of this with an English dictionary definition of words to support your positions, while decrying Greek and Hebrew lexicography, word meanings, etc., citd by some of the rest of us. Last time I checked, the Bble was written in Hebrew, Chaldee and Greek and translated into English. I've seen nothing to indicate that the Biblical languages have changed. I suggest that any version in English is a translation, and is subject to 'improvement', at the least in understanding, and to the original languages, in terms of the sense imparted. I've again got to go feed cattle, etc. so have to sign off for now. But I do think I have addressed most of your last post. And Language Cop doesn't have time to proof-read this, either. so I apologize for more typos than the usual.

Ed

 

On this I'd agree. And I've never said anything differently, BTW.

What you are saying here is not exactly what you have said before on this thread as to the 'origin' of faith. I basically agree with this "precise" wording (and I suspect DHK would, as well, but he can' hang himself' on, 'er I mean speak for himself on this. BTW, DHK and I do not know each other in any way, except on thse pages, to my knowledge. We have never even had so much as a private message between us, that I can remember. Just for the record.) But I do suspect your view of the KJV is not exactly that of at least the majority of the 50 some-odd KJV translators, who worked on the translation for about 150 man-years, not to mention that of any other translators of any other versions I have ever read.

Here are four 'bits' of what the KJV translators "sayeth to the readere" -

'I haueth readde euery word oF the preface oF the 1611 verfion 'to the readere' ande 'to the King', as well. Haueft thou?'

Ed

 

Did they putteth that little "[sic]" in there alsoeth? :laugh:

 

Language Cop did not find this definition of the suffix "-eth", anywhere that he looked, although I certainly cannot say he looked everywhere. If 'wee' have missed this in some way, would you mind posting some evidence for this. Here is what he did find, in the 'hard copy' of our dictionary, as well as a good deal of searching on-line. And this speaks to "believeth" as well.

"I'd say my view, is supported, here." - Signed, Language Cop !

Once again, I find myself agreeing with DHK, who wrote-

I agree as to the arbitrary definitions that I see.

I have responded to this once, already, but you apparently missed it (or chose not to 'get it') so I will quote it again.

I suggest my "limited view of 'on' and 'in'" is entirely Biblical. Since Jesus was the one I quoted, in Jo. 3:15-16 & 6:47, are you saying that Jesus did "only require superstition", when he used "in" with Nicodemus, while Paul somehow "got it right" by saying to the Jailer, "Believe on..."?? I'd suggest you are definitely "skating uphill" on this one for you are on 'very thin (Biblical) ice'! May I suggest 'getting off the pond' in a hurry, for I hear the "ice cracking", all the way over here!! And every "Loganville" in the USA is several hundred miles from me!

God is definitely good, but I'd suggest this method of "spiritual aplication (sic)" shows 'the spirit of Origen' is alive and well. Scripture does have may "spiritual applications" to be sure, but these applications do not override the interpretation. Each and every Scripture has but one (legitimate) interpretation, save obvious (or declared) allegories and parables, and that is properly determined by what is called the "grammatical/historic" interpretation. This is entirely proper, IMO, and has to take precedence over anything you or I would like to take from the verse(s). Only when one has the 'interpretation', can one then arrive at an 'application'. This is not to say that any such 'application' is faulty, per se, but it is improper to try and build any doctrine from an 'application'. I have now spent several hours answering Salamander, more than I probably should have taken. I doubt that I will spend much more time responding to one who, it seems, chooses to ignore several posters who have given substantive replies. I'm not upset, just too busy to waste my time. Any readers can see for themselves the substance of my remarks. I suggest they are adequate for the question(s) posed.

Ed

 

Since it 'beeth' me 'owne' quote, I diddeth notte. Specialie seence I beeth no experte, at alle, on Middle Engleishe. Or Jacobean/Elizabethian English, either, for that matter. :laugh:

That "[sic]" was put in there by the one who put the preface on-line, not me, altough I have access to a hard copy with the notes "to the reader" (with 'updated' spelling) contained therein. But it is hard to get 'hard copy' to 'copy' for posting, with my extremely limited computer skills. :laugh:

But glad you saw the humor thereth!

Ed

 

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There is no equivocation in this verse; no ambiguity whatsoever.
He that hears{/b] (present tense) and believes (present tense) has (present tense) eternal life.
At the present time all those that believe in Christ (have faith in him) already have) eternal life. Furthermore, to emphasize this truth even more Christ goes on to say:

He shall not come into condemnation. Why? Because he already has eternal life. Another reason more directly related starts with the conjunction but

is passed (present tense) from death unto life. Again the emphasis is on what is happening now, the time that one believes. He IS passed from death to life. He has spiritual life. It is a spiritual life that never will end. Once you are born into God's family you cannot be unborn. You are an heir of God, a child of God's family. It is forever, forever a child of God, and thus one is given the gift of eternal life, right then and there.

The faith that one has, that one is born with, that he puts in Christ gives him eternal life. It is not in the future. It is in the present. It is not a might or a maybe. It is a surety.

 

Yes, that is one of the ways in which we are made in the image of God. We have the power to make moral choices--an attribute that animals do not have. We have the choice to believe--to choose to reject or to receive Christ; the choice to believe on Him or not to believe on Him. As a child innately puts faith or confidence in his parents more than others, so Jesus said one must become like a child and put their faith in God. It is a simple child-like confidence that whatever God has promised he will perform. A child has that confidence, that everything his parents has promised they will give and provide--home, food, clothing, etc. Does a person so simplicitly trust God. God doesn't automatically give you that faith. He has given you the ability to make that choice. He doesn't force you to believe. He has given you the choice to make the decision to believe. The choice is yours. He has made us in his image. We are not robots: forced to believe. The faith is not from God. The ablity to choose to believe is from God. There is a difference.